Three Bad Boys

Yeah that would be great. I only want something other than 4v4 for zero bloom, preferably Double Team. That way I don't have to play customs if I want to play 2v2. One can hope!

Currently, zero bloom matchmaking is available in the TU playlist and MLG, both of which are 4v4. The whole point of me making this thread was to request a Team Doubles zero bloom playlist, and maybe even a rumble pit should 343 be so generous. I knew before I even created this thread that lesser skilled players would try to claim bloom takes more skill. No matter how much logic I used or 1v1 challenges I offered (all of which I knew bloom enthusiasts would not accept because they know deep down zero bloom takes more skill), I knew some people could not be convinced. That's why I am just pushing for one or two more playlists.

Okay, first of all please use grammar so we can have a proper conversation. Second, you are probably not very good at this game or you would not have said any of the things you just said, so please read my previous post and you will see the conclusion I have reached. Third, none of the things you said even remotely make sense. Fourth, I would argue (and everyone from the competitive community would agree 100%) that zero bloom is by far the best thing to ever happen to Reach. Fifth, I am not asking for one-hit kills; rather, I desire a game based solely on aiming and strafing. Finally, if you believe more domination on the part of the better player ruins the game, then I am truly sorry. That's why I merely wish for an additional playlist or two for zero bloom, not every playlist. Edit: Work for my kills? Are you kidding me? Do you want to know what working for you kills means? How about having to hit 5 shots in a row perfectly on the head, or else you're dead. If you so much as miss a single shot, you're going to get owned. Nothing makes you work more than that. It requires constant perfection (aka skill).

I appreciate you feedback. I think it is blatantly obvious at this point what is going on here. Casual players like bloom due to slower gameplay and less reliance on perfect aiming, while more advanced or competitive players prefer zero bloom. I have no problem with someone being either type, but I just want it to be out there in the open, and not have people trying to beat around the bush coming up with complicated explanations. Both aspects can be entertaining. I can see how firefight and campaign tend to be more laid back, whereas competitive players literally could not care less if there was even a campaign or firefight at all. We solely want a video game where the more skillful player wins every time. At that point, it just boils down to which audience 343 wishes to please. Naturally, the casual community is much larger, but it would be nice to have one or two more competitive-minded playlists thrown in. This way, we can all be happy. Edit: Don't get me wrong. 343 has done an AMAZING job catering to the competitive community with the implementation of TU playlist and regular MLG playlist updates. So I am extremely grateful for that, and of course I will always have custom games for zero bloom. It would just be nice to experience that level of competition in something other than 4v4 via matchmaking for when all of my friends can't get together.

I'm not complaining about facts. I'm complaining about the consequences of Reach's bloom and its resulting slower gameplay. I am not denying the presence of error angles in previous Halos. While I hate to admit it (lol), I have played a TON of competitive Halo with my buddies with every iteration, and it's irrefutable that headshots were more reasonable in past Halos while being based on the raw talent of aiming and strafing, and gameplay was faster and required quicker thinking. Ever since zero bloom came out and my friends and I were able to play 2v2 custom games, the competition of our friendly rivalries has shot up many times. It's so much more entertaining now since it is actually possible for someone to truly dominate the game and get many double kills using perfect aiming (aka skill) and proper strafing. The speed of play and need for quick thinking MUCH more resembles previous Halos than default Reach. With 5-shot kill DMR (although I don't know the exact specifics), it is pretty similar to 4-shot BR in Halo 2/3 from the standpoint of kill length. I would love the opportunity to play 2v2 and rumble pit zero bloom in matchmaking. This is not even addressing the decision of returning power weapons in the Team Doubles playlist to former status. I greatly dislike this current one clip and slower respawn approach to power weapons in doubles. This seems to make map control and power weapon control meaningless. I'd much rather have at least 8 bullets when I pick up a sniper, preferably 12, and have it spawn more often. Someone may say that this allows for too much domination on the part of one team...well good! If they're that much better where the other team can't even get their hands on a power weapon (which everyone has an equal chance of getting at the start), then they should be on spawn trap.

As a prime example, if you go to my montage in my signature and go to 5:15, you will see what no bloom can do. That situation would never have happened with bloom, ever. I would still have been fighting those guys 10 seconds later.

Yes, that's what we're trying to get at. And you're right about VeteranOND. I, on the other hand, did realize that a similar concept occurred in previous Halos, which is perfectly fine. If it works, it works. But in my personal opinion, Reach's bloom does not work, and I believe most people with above average Halo talent will agree. It slows down the game to such an extent that it is essentially broken.

Nobody is saying there wasn't any kind of aiming error involved in previous Halos. However, it was to a MUCH smaller extent, such that people actually died consistently if shot in the head while injured. Furthermore, multikills and individual game domination were actually possible in previous titles, which is virtually nonexistent in default Reach. Bloom slows the game down to an excruciatingly painful pace. It's take soooooo long to kill just one person, that even if you outsmart an entire team, it does no good whatsoever. It's so incredibly boring to play.

Yep.

Oh no doubt. But to make the analysis meaningful, perhaps it would be best to compare them to the rest of the field. These are teams that have been competing regularly since Reach came out (and some since CE came out), and thus have been putting in just as much time and dedication. Some are pros and some are semi-pros. I believe fully that they will dominate more relative to those people, keeping everything else constant.

My apologizes for the "man" remark. I did not notice the "Ms." in your name. Please excuse me. As for the MLG challenge, it was merely to prove a point that it is going to be much harder for any randoms to beat Instinct, no matter how much they practice. I understand you have an opinion and don't follow MLG, which is cool, but I assure you that the best teams are going to dominate even more now. Their ability to communicate and maneuver in combination with zero bloom is going to make them virtually unstoppable. And it won't be because they are no longer having to time their shots. Believe me, that was inhibiting their skill so much that it was ludicrous.

There are no hard feelings. I just have a theory that lesser skilled players claim bloom takes more skill because they subconsciously (or consciously) realize that that gives them the best chance of beating people significantly better than they are. They claim pacing is skillful, whereas they know deep down they'd get destroyed if they had to rely on aiming and strafing. This has been a recurring theme in my personal experience. There is a reason everyone in the MLG community vehemently supports zero bloom, whereas people in other communities do not like it. It's not a coincidence. People in the MLG community are, on average, better players and thus prefer to play with the most skillful gametypes. Hence, no sprint and no bloom. Empirical evidence pretty much proves the skill gap is infinitely bigger with zero bloom. If you think bloom takes more skill, then find 4 solid players if you are too rusty and coach them as they take down Instinct. After all, they may have dominated last season, but according to you, you stand a chance now with zero bloom. Come on man, you're full of it and you know it.

That's fine and all, but there is still the chance that, no matter how well you "learn" to use your gun, there is no guarantee that you will win based on the proper strategy. You use phrases like "less likely" and "more likely". Here a groundbreaking concept: how about the word "definitely"? Of course I noticed you disregard the 1v1 challenge.

That's the point. It makes it so the outcome is determined solely by aiming and strafing ability. With bloom, there is less of a consequence for missing shots because both of you are praying your reset bloom is accurate. In zero bloom, if you miss a shot, you're dead. Talk about skill. Similarly, with bloom, people are able to escape after being outsmarted because bloom takes so much longer to kill someone that you are able to sprint away around a corner, whereas if you get flanked or otherwise outplayed in zero bloom, you're dead. Think about the situation where you find yourself behind three guys from the other team. With bloom, you have zero chance of killing all three of them. Even if you place a perfect grenade, after one headshot your bloom will cause your subsequent headshots to be inaccurate. With zero bloom, there's a very good chance you're getting a triple kill. Which game would you rather play? Finally, someone from point blank can spam and get a lucky kill over someone who paces shots, and so there is an inconsistency. Again, I challenge anyone who supports bloom to play me 1v1 first with bloom, and then without. We'll see how much of a difference it makes.

Are you kidding me? Map positioning and outsmarting are useless with bloom because it takes so much longer to kill someone that they have a chance to get away. With zero bloom, if I outsmart you, that's it. You're dead. I tell you what. Play me 1v1, first with bloom and then without. We'll see how much of a difference it makes.

His point is that you assumed anyone enjoying a competitive game has no life and sits in a basement all day. You brought that upon yourself. Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Let's compare the ways in which luck plays a factor. If I am in a 1v1 DMR battle with bloom and decide to pace my shots, the other person may decide to spam anyway and kill me by luck from close range. Guess how often luck plays a factor with zero bloom? NEVER! It is 99% of the time who can aim and strafe better. This is not even mentioning the greater opportunity for one player to take control of the game via multiple quick kills. How often do you see double and triple kills with a bloom DMR? It's so rare because the game is WAY too slow, and that equals a boring game. I promise you if I play a lesser skilled player 1v1 with bloom settings, I may win 15-10. If I pop out while one-shot, I have no chance to out-shoot him, or if I do it will be by chance. In contrast, I will win 1v1 zero bloom 15-1 or 15-0. Trust me, I have experienced this multiple times. In that one-shot scenario, there is a good chance I can perform some crazy strafe or crouch jumping and completely embarrass my opponent. Bloom renders clutch aiming meaningless, which is rather stupid when you think about it. Just thinking about 1v1 scenarios with bloom compared to no bloom makes me laugh at the prospect of it taking more skill. I can't tell you the number of times I've gone off on a tear in the Title Update playlist and gotten 25+ kills, and I get messages from the other team asking me how I do so well. Do you think that would even be possible with default settings? Absolutely not. I would be lucky to perform half that well with the game going slower and thus allowing the other team to regain map control. I would have just appeared to be another average player. So tell me, how does that provide for a more skill-based gameplay?

Absolutely false. You have it completely backwards. I can turn around and destroy someone with 4 or 5 quick shots (depending on MLG vs default settings) who had the first shot on me IF THEY MISS A SINGLE SHOT. This requires perfection on the part of the first shooter. A slight choke and you're dead. Now that's skill. Okay, that kind of comment shows a level of immaturity and ignorance that is unacceptable. I am not a pro player; I just enjoy the gameplay for which MLG strives. And nobody cares about what salary you're going to be making. I go to a top university with a 4.0 and will be doing just fine after I graduate...so nobody cares. Don't flaunt around your future prospects like all we do is play Halo all day. It's for recreation, but I prefer demonstrating skill in the process. Please become better educated and refrain from speaking like an ignorant little kid.

On the contrary, I have communicated with or listened to many of the top pro players in one way or another, and they all prefer zero bloom to bloom. So nice try. And I do get it, because I have been playing Halo since CE, and I know that when I shot someone in the head who was injured in a past Halo, they died. This is not the case in default Reach, and I don't know what more you can say to that.

Again, so I guess MLG is just a bunch of idiots, right? Have you watched a zero bloom game versus a bloom game of the best players in the world? Their individual skill shines through infinitely more. And in past Halos, the shots weren't precise, but if you shot someone in the head when they were one shot, THEY DIED! That is definitely not the case with a bloom gun. All waiting waiting for a bloom to reset does is inhibit people who can think faster from taking advantage of that talent, while in the meantime someone can span with a bloom shot and get LUCKY over a guy who patiently waits. That is NOT what a game should be about, ever. That's what I want! That's what the best players in the world want. I don't know what possible argument there is against that. So in fact, sir, I am not totally wrong.

Alright, well no matter what you say, you cannot deny that bloom leads to slower gameplay. There is no refuting that claim in any way, shape, or form. With zero bloom, you can react faster and allow the gameplay to keep up with your thought process. Oh yeah, and I guess MLG, the most competitive Halo communitity, is just a bunch of fools then. Right...

Yep, I am just so dumb. Playing a gametype where the battle outcomes are not completely dependent on aiming ability is clearly superior. Oh wait... Next time, reply with something that actually refutes my argument. Don't treat me like an idiot, because I am not one. I don't care what you call it. "Bloom", "error angle", "randomness"...it doesn't matter. It still boils down to some factor that is out of my control, which is the opposite of what competitive players should be advocating. And what data? Just open your eyes when you play the game, and it's right in front of your face. I don't need data to prove what I can already see. When I shoot someone in the face with a bloomed weapon, it may or may not kill them. When I shoot someone in the face with a zero bloomed weapon, they die. It's that simple. Do you actually believe, from the bottom of your heart, that a bloom weapon takes more skill than no bloom? When I play someone 1v1 with bloom, the outcomes are completely meaningless. Nobody actually knows who is the better player. With no bloom, there is no doubt about it. I don't know about you, but that's what I like to play.

You raise a good point about zero bloom DMR being overpowered relative to other starting weapons. However, I am refering solely to games in which everyone spawns with a DMR, which obviously provides for the most skill oriented gameplay. With basic power weapons such as rockets, sniper, and shotgun, you can definitely defeat someone with a DMR. My point is just that, of all the Halo iterations, bloom DMR lends itself to the most unskillful and random gameplay, relatively speaking of course. With zero bloom, the more skillful and aware player wins 99.9% of the time, versus 50-60% with bloom, even 85% bloom. But I also don't see how someone can defeat the logical argument: 1) Zero bloom obviously takes the most skill 2) CERTAIN playlists exists to determine the most skillful players 3) Therefore, skill based playlists should implement zero bloom Simply put, any random variable at all completely renders the outcome of a battle meaningless. The more variables in play, the less certain we are who is the better player. So why should we play with the king of all random variables? I realize more casual players that aren't quite as good at the game prefer slower paced and more laid back gameplay, which is why I am pushing for only one or two more zero bloom playlists. That way, we can experience zero bloom in the major gametypes: 4v4, 2v2, and Rumble Pit. To BirdieJuice, it has nothing to do with "trigger spamming". It's about winning a battle because you can aim better, not because you got lucky with bloom spreading your bullets randomly.

I have a very simple quesiton for 343i. Why is there still bloom in any playlist at all? I thought we finally convinced the masses that this was by far the worst decision Bungie ever made. I am exremely grateful that zero bloom gametypes are available for us in the TU playlist, MLG playlist, and custom games. But I would like to play in other playlists, such as Double Team and Rumble Pit, without having to play on the ridiculous default Reach settings. Is there really anyone with a beating heart who prefers the dumbed down, unpredictable, skill-inhibiting, and pace decreasing nature of bloom gametypes? If you are out there, please let me know. I would love an explanation. And yes, I realize 343i is happily working on Halo 4 right now, and I have no idea how complex of an implementation this would be. If there are really those out there who prefer to play with bloom (which for the life of me I cannot comprehend), then could there at least be a Double Team and Rumble Pit zero bloom playlist? 2v2 is probably my favorite playlist, but it's flat out unplayable in its current state. Not only is the bloom unbearable, but one starting grenade and slower power weapon respawns with only one clip...really? Whose idea was that? That makes it INCREDIBLY boring. This would be awesome! Thanks for hearing me out!

I meant in multiplayer. Yes, I thought of this after posting. It still seems like a pain. I wonder why you can't do this by default? Anyway, thanks for your help!

I have a question about the anniversary map pack. When I load up the Anniversary disc, I can select between two variations of each map in the custom game lobby: the classic version and the modified version. I just downloaded the maps using the code, and when I load up the Reach disc, I can only select the remade versions. How come I can't pick the classic versions to play in custom games with my friends? How do I get these? Thanks for any help!