Tephnos

^ The above is true. Do not try and denounce Halo 3's success and numbers right up until Reach's release because of COD. The fact is, Reach has a terrible population compared to Halo 3, with only a third of the lifespan in. You're kidding yourself if you blame this on other games. If reach was really that good, (like Halo 3 was when COD was hugely popular with 4) then the players would keep on playing Reach, as they did with halo 3.

Reticule tells me it's a grenade launcher. Not a bad find.

How many times do I have to say it? No one cares about the 'facts' behind what you're saying. The FACT is, the MAJORITY of the population do not care for these game mechanics, and it is why Reach is a dead horse compared to Halo 3. And yes, you did strike a nerve with me by telling me I was on a high horse. Come off it. I'm trying to be nice, but I'll just say it then: I'm better than you; I know what skill is. I know what does and doesn't work in a competitive environment because I experience it. You obviously don't. The way you define what skill is, is pretty much laughable. With the way I've seen some arguments on this forum, you could have a weapon that homes in on heads, never runs out of ammo, and never misses, and you guys would say "Well the more skillful team would have acquired that weapon and therefore shows skill!". An extreme example, but it's basically what you're saying. Stop trying to redefine what skill is when you don't even play competitively. I think MLG has a better idea of what balanced skill is than you do. Personally, I don't care to counter your arguments anymore. Fact is, Reach population is abysmal, the general player laughs at Halo Reach, and something needs to be done.

If we complain now, they'll get the idea of what we really want. And it doesn't matter if it's a new trilogy. You don't give the players what they want, byebye goes the matchmaking population.

If the effects were purely aesthetic, such as HUD styles, then yes, that's fine. Anything that changes gameplay is a huge mistake.

I'm not really prepared to argue this further. Redefine skill all you want, make your own made up version, whatever. The fact is, the Reach population is abysmal. Try to justify the gameplay mechanics all you want; the fact remains that there is a serious problem with the Reach gameplay that turned a vast majority of the population away. By the way... did I ever say that I get owned in Reach? No; I didn't. There YOU go, putting words in MY mouth, that I never even said. I still destroy in Reach, the game is a piece of cake compared to Halo 3. Does that mean I have to like it? No, I don't.

Ah yes, all that wall of text was basically: Get over it. Nice one, you're saying what the casuals have said since the game came out. Look at the numbers for once? Oh, rank DOES mean something. It means I play a higher tier of skill than you do. That's fact. Sorry for being on a 'high' horse just because I play more competitively.

Guess what? You get yourself spawntrapped, it's your own fault. It's a legitimate strategy commonly used. To get out of it you have to use TEAMWORK.

Basically, this is what the AAs amounted to: Jetpack - Ruined the idea of map control. Especially top control. Imagine Halo 3 on Construct with jetpacks. The team that just got forced to the bottom of the map can just fly up and ruin the other teams efforts to control their spawns. Do NOT tell me that is skill. Just, do not. Camo - Screws with the radar, and is really annoying when someone does it all the time. Slows down the gameplay as it makes a player wary and he looks at every little corner for the guy hiding with the camo. Camo itself is not bad, but keep it as a pickup, not an AA. Sprint - It's okay, but it allows people to run away in a losing firefight way too easily, and allows them to dart ouf of spawntraps very easily. Hologram - I see it as pretty pointless. Essentially slows down the gameplay and is just generally annoying as (as far as I remember) your reticule locks onto the hologram, so it can get you killed if you hover over it in a fight. Drop Shield - Not bad, but it's just a bubble shield, it should stay as a pick up only. You shouldn't be able to deploy it all the time. Armor lock - Press X for invincibility. That in itself is stupid. If you get stuck, you should die. If a rocket is coming right at you, you should die. If a tank just ran you over, you should die. Evade - Basically like sprint, but a lot more annoying.

If this is still going on, I wouldn't mind jumping in sometimes.

It's not about learning all the mechanics (to an extent). It's about BALANCE. The default Reach playstyle is NOT BALANCED. And you can NOT have 'skill' without BALANCE. Limit yourself to the bare minimum like the BR/Sniper and other few weapons like the MLG playlist in Halo 3 did. They keep the weapons that kept the playlist BALANCED, and removed the overpowered crap. Is it skill if I have armour lock and the other guy doesn't? No, it's not. I may have 'outsmarted' him, but it's not skill because it's not BALANCED. If you give everyone the same weapons and tell them to work together to kill each other, the more SKILLED players will ALWAYS win. This is SKILL, that is BALANCE. Without BALANCE, the players who just aren't as good can use the overpowered mechanics to their advantage to win. That is NOT skill, that is just luck. Oh, and it doesn't matter what you practise with. You could practise in default settings all you want, but a team who knows teamwork, communication, etc etc under a BALANCED competitive environment will ALWAYS wipe the floor with you. The skills and tactics transfer. An MLG pro will destroy anyone in any playlist. It's just that the imbalance on the default playlists are not ideal, and it's annoying when you're killed due to bullcrap. See what I'm saying here? Skill is being able to outplay your opponents consistently under a BALANCED setting. This is not the default setting where AAs run amok.

Compared the numbers from halo 3 to Reach? H3 had a huge population for *years*. Reach has trouble sustaining a fraction of that for barely a year after release.

How many times do I have to quote it? Go read one of the other threads where I posted examples as to why AAs are bad for Halo. Numbers don't mean anything? Okay then. Let's just let halo slowly die because *you* think everyone loves AAs.

And as I stated before, the numbers tell you everything. Compared to the older games, Reach is the most unpopular one to date, in terms of the number of players online. That says it all.

I checked her stats to see, and it told me all I needed to know. I already provided arguments and examples in other threads, try reading them. And as a matter of fact, if you took a look at my reach stats, I destroy people who abuse AAs all the time. You know what though? it's still boring and annoying to have to deal with them, as all it does is slow down gameplay.

Hahaha. You are very naive. Nice going on being an ass too for no reason.

No. Just no. I hate to say this (because it does sound arrogant), but you don't play competitive halo, and thus you have no idea what 'skill' in halo (and general gaming) actually is, and how it always has been. There's a reason why DOOM/Halo are rated as more skillful than Battlefield/COD.

You do realise, that while what you say sounds fine on paper, it just *doesn't* work as well as you'd think in actual games, and that's why I'm saying unless you play competitively and notice these things, you couldn't really understand where I'm coming from.i It's the same as when Reach first came out and the competitive players complained about things that unbalanced the game like AAs and bloom, and the casuals essentially said "get over it, and get used to it". See how well that turned out?

The majority disagree. Which is why Reach couldn't hope to sustain the population Halo 3 could, for the length of time that it did.

Are you kidding me? Play some competitive halo where this stuff actually matters, and then come back and tell me AAs are tactical and skillful.

No it doesn't. I'm sorry, but have you actually played any competitive halo, where the players actually care about everything that unbalances the game or creates issues? Sprint is the lesser evil of the AAs, but it's still not 'great'.

Having faith is hard when it was just disappointment after disappointment with bungie. There is no way I'll hype myself up for this game. I'll just hope they do whats best.

Why did I feel sick? Because I love Halo, and I was so disappointed with Reach that I outright pretty much quit gaming, hoping Halo 4 would salvage it. The videos I've seen give me a very 'reach' feel about the game. The sprint hinted at AAs. There was talk of loadouts. The upgrades, etc. I can not see anything good coming out of that, "working with how halo plays" or not. You can not fault me for being worried about it, and I do hope further announcements quell those doubts. Until then, yes, I will continue to be concerned. All I want is a multiplayer experience that is very balanced, very competitive, and limits the bullcrap to a bare minimum. That is why I played Halo 3 for so long and never got bored of it. That's all I want. And no, it can't be an optional "play customs" thing. If they don't base Halo 4 off the same kind of system, people will jump into it, get tired of it, and play the next best thing. They want a balanced and competitive system that can sustain a huge population like Halo 2 and 3 did.

Alright, here's my opinion. I'm a veteran Halo player, with multiple 50s in Halo 3, playing for most of the time that the game was active. I think I can speak for a few of the issues, from a competitive standpoint. First of all, adding more gameplay mechanics does not necessarily devalue skill. However, when it is not done right it does indeed ruin all skill; and this is what happened with Reach. Let's go over a few of the AA for an example. First of all, sprint. It's not necesarily bad; and it's the only AA I used for that reason. However, when in the earlier games you were in a BR fight and were going to lose, you could run away with your head down and give yourself time to get away. If the guy chased you, you could plan ahead and get the jump on him, killing him. This is tactical, and skill. In Reach? You try to run away, the guy sprints you down and the entire concept of getting away in any meaningful way is just thrown out the window. It's not good. Armour Lock? Don't even get me started on that. Press X for invincibility is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. Got stuck? No worries! Vehicle going to splatter you? No worries! About to die? No worries!. it's probably the worst AA for the simple fact that you can avoid a ton of situations where you *SHOULD* have died. What's the damn point? Plus, when the person goes into AA all the time, it slows gameplay down dramatically. One of the biggest problems with reach was how agonizingly slow the gameplay was comapred to the rest of the series. Spartans ran slower, didn't jump as high, etc. With grenades being like mini nukes in this game it made dodging them near impossible compared to the earlier games, and strafing in DMR battles (along with ghandi hopping) is nearly useless simply because you just aren't fast enough for it to be worthwhile anymore. The pacing of a game is one of the biggest reasons that makes it very competitive and skillful. The most fun type of competitive games are the ones that are very fast paced, with no slow breaks. The early Halo games, especially 1 and 2, did this perfectly, and it is why they were very, very popular. Know why DOOM takes more skill than battlefield 3? The pacing of DOOM is much, much, much faster. As for bloom? Stupid idea. The very idea of it slows down the gameplay further, and the fact the shots can go anywhere within the circle introduces a random element to the game, making it less skillful. That is a simple fact that cannot be argued. Two people enter a DMR fight. One times his shots perfectly. The other spams. The spammer has a chance of winning. It's low, but it's THERE, and it happens to players. That is the kind of crap that people cannot stand. So yes, classes and AAs, along with slower gameplay mechancis and bloom, really did kill Reach. A lot of people said "you will learn to deal with them". What happened? A majority of the population got tired of the crap, even most of the non competitive players, and just switched to other games. As for Halo 4? I looked at the multiplayer and felt sick. I'm very worried. I've also heard that 343i are planning a COD type upgrade system? Can anyone shed light on that? That single sentence, if true, has already killed Halo 4 for me. I have no idea why they just can't leave things that *work* alone.