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your missing my point, it shouldnt be a contest, if they both start shootting at remotely the same time the close range weapon user should win so long as both people are hitting with all there bullets. assault weapons are mainly CQ, precision weapons mainly long range, with some flavor that encroaches on the medium range (BR, unscoped LR, AR burst firing) DMR needs a kill time of about 1.8 seconds similar to the DMR

you think its the kill time sweet spot, i think its just trying too hard to be like CoD reaction based shooter. again, your confusing your opinion with facts. the DMR is intended to be better then the BR at everything? cuz atm outside of swat it is. The dmr, a MARKSMEN RIFLE designed for med/long range has near identical kill time as the assault rifle in clsoe range and you think thats balanced? its nowhere near, again you show you just want to maintain your power weapon. the DMR in practice and design is a weakned sniper with a larger clip and faster fire rate. you can argue semantics all you want. and there you go calling me bad, you might cal me bad but its obvious at this point whose the biased one, id rather be labeled biased rather then ignorant. sorry not a lie, there is only two ways a assault rifle user will kill the dmr user in close range. hitting first or making the DMR user miss. neither of which is a limitation of the DMR. the DMR needs a limitation. and its straight up faster then a BR in kill time, essentially outshining the BR in every normal format, buffing the Br will just widen the gap between ARs and precision guns. in other words a unbalanced decision. utility=/= unbalanced which the HCE pistol was, only defended by people who abuse it or people that didnt understand it. same goes for DMR, its obvious at this point your just defending your toy and dont want it touched cuz if you couldnt be on equal or better footing vs everyone with one gun youd cry. and again you keep talking about the DMR and skill, well sad to say sir, there is more to skill then side strafing and aiming at the head, something you seem to fail to realize. i get it, its fun for you to have such a beastly weapon, you like the playstyle that comes with precision weapons thats fine. but its not a utility weapon, its the only logical option, and thats bad for the game. @Antics, the only time its easily defeated at close range is if you have a one shot CQ weapon...which isnt what we are talking about, we are talking about what you start with the loadout (i guess you could make a case for hte boltshot alt fire tho). The player messing up cuz he feels pressure that someones that close to him is not a valid basis for balance. thats user error, not gun limitation. every gun needs a limitation in order for there to be balance, or lese the guns without limitation will crap all over the other ones, something we are seeing happening right now.

assuming perfect play the DMR user would actually win every time, it has a faster time to kill then the BR. strafing, jumping, crouching, etc...should not be factored into the weapons balance.

the DMR has a faster kill time then the BR along with less recoil and capable of longer range its kill time is nearly identical to a assault rifle in close assuming player open up at the same time (which rarely happens) in fact the only situation aside from playstyle that the BR beats the DMR is in swat lol

what is balanced about it? it has a faster TTK then the BR or the AR assuming the DMR user doesnt miss (and assuming max skill, he wont). it out ranges all starting weapons save for the light rifle. it can be accurately spammed. where is its weakness?

if you want a game where your performance is decided by skill, then the DMR needs a slight nerf, and adjustments probably to numerous other guns and armor abilities, etc. and again your blindly state that if you like to use a AR your a bad and a kid so ill reply with this im 26 ive sniped with the best of em across multiple shooters i found it BORING so...**** off

I find the grenades (especially plasma) to be weaker this time around DMR>BR at long range, and IN TESTING has a time to kill about .2 seconds faster then the BR, tho the BR may be a bit more forgiving at medium range and close range sniper>br long range straight up shotgun>BR CQ straight up dont know about suppresso tho

lol disregarding the entire post your rock paper scissors example, isnt random, its tactics. you use a long range weapon, you AVOID getting in close range, if someone gets in close range, congrats they out lucked/played you (because there is a element of luck in any but the most basic types of games) and your reasons for why reach failed are so narrowminded and ill suited to actual reasoning its laughable. your example is also biased with your view, i dont know why its hard for you to see that, your getting skill confused with hubris and ignorance. good to know that automatic weapons are supposed to be worse then a precision weapon, REMOVE THE GOD DAMN AUTOMATIC WEAPONS...oh wait...if they are in the game, and 343 tries to balance any of them, THEN THEY ARE INTENDED TO BE IN THE GAME, AND INTENDED TO BE COMPETITIVE...get off your sniper high horse you ignorant esport kid. its not that hard to see if youd get off that pedistal for one damn second and have a reasonable conversation with someone other then spouting your biased vitriol everywhere. The AR is not random, its actually quite accurate up to medium range, and can reward players at medium range with controlled bursts, it also has less spread then the other two autos. and again if it isnt competitive or skillfull REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME OR BALANCE IT SO IT IS. you know what, im stopping my rant, ill say it, its obvious that you are a precision weapon fanboy that gets his own epeen flexing ego trips confused with skill. all i want is a equal footing, all you want is OP weapons. your entire theory behind the purpose of automatic weapons in halo is REDICULOUS and has absolutly ZERO basis in fact or reality. thats not how you debate a point, so your not debating, your just mindlessly blathering your own bias to keep your good thing going. and FFS you do have to aim with a automatic weapon, you have to use controlled bursts at any range at all, the only real difference is they are not capable of heads shots or long range combat. also SWAT is not a traditional gametype, if you want it balanced you need to give the weapons special properities just for that game type, or make the regular gametype unbalanced. the amount of lies, minconceptions, and machismo you emenated from this last post is honestly disgusting and you should probably check on what balance means, not what you want it to mean. everyone access to a unbalanced weapon whiel other weapons need looking at doesnt mean balance. edit: and im sorry for getting pissy but damn, gets aggravating when you finally realize the person isnt looking for a rational argument of balance but just wants to hold onto his/her toys :/

yes, slightly

so you dont want balance, why not just start with that then? again you keep citing halo reach even tho its already been explained at length that there is MUCH more to the games success/failure then having an OP gun in multiplayer. Ive never said i get owned by DMR users, and i never said i dominated either. Your making baseless assumptions in attempt to steer the conversation off topic.. Once again you flip flop in your paragraph. you state how you dont want balance, and then go on about how the game is balanced. fact is the game ISNT balanced, there ARE some tweaks that are needed, and the DMR is SLIGHTLY unbalanced, precision weapons in general>autmoatic weapons too. then it should be removed from the loadouts, from the game in fact, because of its not gonna be balanced around the rest of the weapons, it shouldnt be ingame. Id much rather have a tense close range firefight then slowly side strafing while jockeying for a head shot. left, left, RIGHT, RIGHT+CROUCH, JUMP!, OMG I HEAD SHOT HIM OMG FAP i recognize that people like that playstyle tho, and dont want it removed. but it shouldnt be the only competitive way to play at high skill levels, thats boring. that is why your alleged "rock paper scissors" style would add real compelling gameplay. you just dont want to be punished for a short range weapno user getting in close

the only thing that requires skill about the DMR is getting that head shot, and with as much aim assist and the way its hitboxing works, its not nearly as hard as it used to be. and no the concept of the game isnt to sit behind cover all day cuz we are sniping eachother. atm the "adapt" you fondly reply with will just boil down to go dmr or go home.

look it up on youtube

DMR (and possibly precision weapons in general) need a SLIGHT nerf, sorry guys

incorrect, they have similar kill times so long as the DMR user does not miss. assuming a skilled DMR user, and not your avg joe, which is how weapon balance is supposed to be done. this is not a effective drawback, a drawback is something that cannot be overcome by something like skill. example, autmoatic weapons cannot hit at long range, no matter how skilled you are. quite simply, precision weapons need a slight damage nerf, there kill times should be slightly slower due to the fact that they can engage at any range while a autmoatic weapon user is relegated to short/medium range at best. only then will there be balance. atm a precision weapon user is not suitably punished for letting a automatic weapon user in close, yet a automatic weapon user is punished every single time they are caught in the open for a second.

The DMR is slightly OP compared to other precision starting loadouts. precision weapons in general are slightly OP compared to automatic weapons (against talking about loadouts) the DMR needs a weakness

i hate the trend for reaction based shooters. its not even about being fast paced, its how hits the other guy first wins. its not fun for me

a real skillful player wouldnt say this why? cuz your idea of what is real halo is a win more scenario. the good player knows how to control the map, he gets the best weapons and PWNS more, making it unfun at best for the "noobs". now i dont have much on whether ordnance is a good and /or balance system. but the old one obviously wasnt.

well like i said i dont have a lot of info on it

i admit i dont have a lot of info on the boltshot, my first impression is its ok since it has a charge up time and requires such close proximity to kill someone in one shot. however maybe having it consume the entire clip causing a reload?

thats all fine tho imo since those are ordnance drop power weapons, not starting loadouts /shrug, mine is more about the starting loadout weapons.

if you let a AR user get close enough to you that he can use that tactic you deserved to eat dirt. seriously, its like people who use precision weapons think they shouldnt be punished for using one in CqC combat.

Here is my beef, assuming a skilled player, the precision weapons are virtually as potent in close range as a automatic weapon. assuming a skilled player the idea of the precision weapon being harder to use in close combat is in reality largely nullified, the more skilled the player, the more nullified the percieved difficulty. on the other hand no matter how skilled the autmoatic weapon user is, they cannot get those bullets to hit at long range. This leads to a skilled player a precision weapon is straight up better to use at all times, you can argue that in situations a automatic weapon is "easier" but if we start balancing around weapons being easier or harder to use the balance will become even worse. My suggestion is NOT to increase automatic weapon damage, this would make them imo encroach on certain power weapons. rather i suggest to decrease the power of the precision weapons slightly. increasing there kill times by maybe another bullet. so the idea is simple, you want the ability for long range combat, you will have less kill time then a player who picks a gun that is incapable of long range combat. Thus as precision weapon user will be actually punished for letting a automatic user in close jsut as a autmoatic user is punished right now for being caught in the open at longer ranges.

"relatively" point blank range, the spread is actually kinda random, not hte same everytime, so there is a chance of it oneshotting you from further away, tho the chance, like i said is random, and not very far.

your really trying to argue "forgiving?" if you want to argue that then you are not arguing balance. the DMR has no weakness or drawback at any range, and it should have one or automatic weapons that CANNOT TOUCH LONG RANGE AT ALL need straight up faster kill times in CqC. saying "if you miss" isnt a valid balance argument either. straight up its simple. if you take a precision weapon capable of long range combat, it needs to be trumped by a weapon that is incapable of long range combat, I.E. autmoatic weapons. a autmoatic weapon user gets punished for being caught in the open by a DMR user, the DMR user needs to be punished for letting a auto user in close.

complaining about power weapons...lol the only power weapon that is OP is that forerunner rocket launcher thing.