Twinreaper

Not to rehash an argument...but I almost forgot about this. Halo 3's competition that you stated is false. In order for the title to be conscidered competition it had to release around or right after the title. There were no highly anticipated titles around that time. You could argue Crysis 1 yes, but due to piracy on the PC, it flopped console wise. So take out Crysis. Battlefield was 2114 I think? Not anticipated and sold lower than expected due to the game itself and development pushbacks. CoD as well had Black OPS, but that was released well 8 months before Halo 3. Halo 3 alone had hype out the wazzu and a special appearance at E3 with the trailer for it. Reach may have done better a bit if the PR people at Microsoft were focusing on it. I do agree that reach compared to other titles is weaker by population as a whole. Microsoft is soley to blame for this. At the time Reach was going thru production, Microsoft was worried more about 343i taking the reigns and transitioning the title as well as prepping development for a linear story successor in Halo 4. The marketing people really didn't do a well enough job to hype up Reach, and yes in the end Bungie was more focused on doing what THEY wanted versus giving the community a solid true product that we had come to believe in from them.

Main problem is, all of the hate is always put towards MM....you know there is a campaign and other modes to right? I am tired of hearing about MM complaints personally. Halo wasn't even supposed to have MM or be a FPS..it just so happens it got put in. Everyone is so blinded by MM that they have no concept of the drain MM puts on campaign and other fun modes. I'm all for you guys having your hardcore MLG style play...but you guys never really pause to think about the other gamers who never play MM or the MM modes and stick to campaign and other fun modes solo. Also I am very tired of everyone diminishing peoples skill by posting ridiculous things like "Reach catered to low skill players" and yadda yadda. Way to insult your fellow gamers. If your ego and skill is that great...good for you, there is no need to flame around calling people who play and love Reach low skill or noobs, or whatever. With that kind of posting and attitude, it's no wonder 343i or even Bungie never took any of this community seriously. I'll say it again and say it one last time...this community is way to fractured and diverse to even start to have any direction or right to tell 343i how to produce a Halo title. This community has become a gutter filled cesspool as compared to how it was back 5 to 8 years ago. I should know, I was around and modding the first round of Halo games 10 years ago. I watched the community grow from a handful of gamers to what it is now. This community needs to once again find some solid ground to reform itself on and heal the diversity wounds before it can properly move forward. There has to come a time when we all say "Screw what type of gameplay you and I want...lets come together and have fun and work together to move forward." not more of the same old "I are cuul cuz I am 50 and Reach sucks bloom blah noobs get raped in H3".

The competition and quality is relative. Halo 2 and Halo 3 did not have competition to worry about. Show me one FPS or another genre title from the release dates of Halo 2 and Halo 3 that would have threatened it. You can't. Halo Reach had a lot of competition, and a lot of hype behind other titles that dwarfed it. Reach was not nearly hyped as much as Halo 3 or Halo 2. No matter how good Halo was made, or even if Halo 2/3 came out now....there are too many other great titles that take away from it. You don't think for one minute that games like Mass Effect 3 or even Assassins Creed coming up, won't effect populations for other games? Everything is interconnected and it's always easier to point to a game and say it sucked and that's why nobody plays it. Your looking at the whole thing through closed eyes and seeing it only from a hardcore / MLG perspective. At least that much can be assumed since you asked in another thread why we casual or softcore gamers prefer Reach and why we do. Evolution of the games is a needed thing. Do you honestly think CoD 4 or even Modern Warfare would have had the sales and popularity it did, if it had been like CoD 2 and had not changed? Change is what made those titles popular, and the same will happen with Halo. It jut takes a bit more time for some changes to finally be accepted. In the end, if Halo 4 does not work for you, then move on.

I also respect your views on reach, but I do take issue with people and their misconceptions about bloom. Bloom was never argued about in Halo 1 at all. Halo 2 had bloom but it was a constant, not gradual bloom. Halo 3 had the same constant defined bloom, but was a bit different in settings compared to Halo 2. Overall, peoples issue is only with the precision weapons. Noone ever talks about the bloom settings on any other weapon...why is that? No really, answer it for me. I fail to see why so many people are so hung up on pinpoint weapons. To me, it sounds like that's their only skill then, pinpoint weapons. I'm trying to understand it but noone has really offered any good viable explanation for it. Map control will still work, but it was already stated that the random weapon drops can be figured out and actually timed. That was directly taken from Frankie himself. The interpretation that all weapon drops will be completely random at all times was taken out of context. If I ever do get my hands on another jtag or dev console, I will try my best to provide you or anyone else with tag data that may reveal the timing and fluctuations in the netgame tags. You do have to realize though, the gaming market right now is extremely volatile, and did not help Halo gain sales with Reach. As I had stated before, if the market was not as flooded with next gen titles and you took out major contenders like BF and CoD, people would only be left with an obvious choice in FPS title. I will say that Reach's evolution did not help much, but it is soley not to blame for it's decline or less than stellar performance. It's easy to blame game mechanics when a title fails....unless that is, you do some real research and come to realistic conclusions about a games marketability and competition. I mean look, I get what you are saying about Halo 4's outlook and I agree I don't like the direction it is heading. I'm a hardcore Halo modder, been around since H1 and created hundreds upon hundreds of content extensions for all titles except Reach. I'm with you in wanting a more Halo 2/ Halo 3 gameplay playing field, but realistically I look at things from a dev and company view as well. It makes sense that Halo HAS to evolve to truely stay competitive with other titles. To answer your question from my end, I have played more hours/days/weeks/years than I can count. I still play halo 2 to this day, and run servers for both halo 2 and Halo 1. But I do prefer Reach's attempt at MM. I am a casual gamer, and I liked the pace Reach provided and the options in playing. I liked the refined "error angle" (bloom) mechanic that they perfected. I say perfected because a true "error angle" should not be a pre-defined radius...it should grow or change depend on how the weapon is used. Now I never played Halo 2 or Halo 3 competitively outside my own servers or with CñR. But I liked a lot of new mechanic techniques they introduced. For me Halo 2 and Halo 3 will always fall short with the shotty tag work invloved. Had a little more care been taken in the wepaon tag handling designs....it could have been a much better game, Halo 3. Halo 2 was doomed from the start and is still very much a broken failed version of Halo. The only thing that saved it was the MM and the coming of Xbox Live that was introduced because of Halo 2.

First off, the bloom that you and everyone else is complaining about, was worse in Halo 1. SO if your gonna say that the Ogre Twins had their "skill" inhibited by bloom in Reach, that is just a fail comparison and excuse. You cannot compare skill across titles. Every single title has a different core global.globals setting defined. Of coarse yes, people will retain or be able to use some skill from a previous title, but they simply cannot just pickup a controller and rage out to the top of the pack from the start. Each new title brings new map control, new mechanic variables etc.... You say AA's and bloom for Reach took skill out the pro's hands? I say it opened up a whole new level of skill that everyone HAD to work for...not just pick up the controller and play the same gameplay over and over. AA's and bloom have long been a "hiding behind" feature of all the pros for a while now. It's finally time someone stands up and just admits that their skill in Reach is lesser instead of constantly coming up with excuses as to why they lose. But of coarse they won't. They will all just continue to hide behind poor excuses such as randomness, luck, AA's, unbalanced spawning etc... For everyone out there, show me pulled tag data that supports "random" or "Luck" in a weapon mechanic. Luck and random do not exist...there is data to control everything in the weapon. X-Ray vision aside, you don't know how it's going to be used. It's possible it will only be a "heat vision" type of usage where you briefly can see every biped in your FOV for a few seconds. This is much different than the first impression people get by thinking walls will suddenly become transparent for minutes on end. Armor Abilities have yet to be elaborated on, and you cannot just simply assume that because we had them on Reach, that they will carry over the usage into Halo 4. One thing does bother me. You call out people who use cammo and sniping from afar.....yet you (MLG, not you in particular) will backup and say that BxR or BxB in Halo 2 or Halo 3 was aye ok? Little hypocritical isn't it. In fact ask around the MLG circuit. Guarantee everyone says that button combos are just fine. Well I guess they are crying because cammo AA and sniper is something ANYONE can do, and not just a handfull of people who had to use a "cheap button combo" to get the easy "handed to" kills. Sniping with cammo AA is just as much a skill as anything. Using any wepaon with cammo reveals you, and the sniper contrail will point you towards the sniper. If your not good enough to make your way to him by evading his shots or out smarting him...then I see no reason why he does not deserve the kills he got.

Azaxx puking a rainbow.....EPIC!!!!

Here is a thought..... What if they decided to have a single fire option when zoomed? We have done this in halo 2, where when you zoom it fires single shots, and out of zoom the usual 3 burst fire. If that were the case....the BR and DMR might actually come out pretty even.

This got out of hand fast. I don't even know where to begin sorting this out. I'll just start with random things... 1. The whole bloom argument. It wa sa feature with every title. reach was the first title to correct the datat fields and have it mechanically perform the way it was intended. If need be I can pull post relevant data fields from the weapon tags and globals to back this up. 2. You cannot compare skill across Halo Titles. Each title brought a unique expereince and game play mechanics that were not all available in the previous. 3. Hating on Reach because supposed "pros" or "MLG" players insist there is less skill or the game inhibits players with real skill, only further proves that your skill set is only limited to previous titles, in which you constantly make referrences to. It's a fact, not every pro or mlg guy will be great at every title. People have to evolve or re-learn techniques in order to evolve with a game. Calling things random or luck because you don't understand a mechanic or a gameplay feature is childish. Every feature or usage in the engine is designed to work a certain way. While you may not agree with the way it works, you cannot bash or diminish it simply because you say it is bad. 4. No game on earth is completely different than another. every game uses or borrows ideas or techniques from another game somewhere. Halo in terms of core basics was due for a change. Creating games like Halo may have started out as "fun"...but look where that got Bungie. On the verge of Bankruptcy before Microsoft stepped in and backed them for the rights to Halo. Creating the next Halo game is a balance of fun, compromise and sales. Without sales, there is no further title...just as without no compromise, there would be no fans....you see where this is leading. 5. Saying CoD players or the game in general lacks any skill is false. every game has a certain degree of skill and skill set rquired to master it. Just because it is different than Halo's, makes it no less skill required. 6. Statistically Reach was not a failure by any means. Had Halo Reach been launched when say...Halo 2 was, Reach would have had the same success as Halo 2. The game market is more competative now, and the economy is dragging. Reach's quality had no effect on the sales or population. Economic status' and a heavy competative title presence helped to minimize the impact Reach had. If your gonna try quoting facts or statistics by saying quality or game content killed a franchise or title, you really need to be careful and research the comparative title and "timing" of that said title. 7. Halo was never known for anything other than just being a great innovator in FPS's. I guess in my 10+ years of playing Halo, I must have missed the memo that stated "Halo was and always will be known for being a high competative game that required the most skill to play". Funny, I thought it was because it had a great story, offered various forms of MM gameplay and allowed multiple genres of gamers to come together and enjoy it. Now as I read and go over more of the posts in this thread, I see one common underliying fear. That fear is that the newer systems employed by halo 4, will further regress or require previous title pro's to re-learn or evolve with the title past the point of which they will care to. This of coarse is only assumption. None of us truly know how any of these new features will work, and guessing at them based on pictures alone or misconstrued words is not enough to do so. Now, if there was a Beta and people got to try them out then hated it....that would be a completely different story. Like all opinions, we must all remain respectful of eachother's and stop this constant fighting with eachother. It is all well and good to not agree or want to point out flaws and shiz...but please do so kindly. We really dont need anymore pointless long flame wars between members.

I agree 100% Destroyer. People really need to stop saying halo 4 will be like CoD. I mean don't get me wrong, I dont like what I have seen from h4 so far, but I can at least say that I like that they are finally deciding to evolve the game further into modern MM times. On a side note, calling H4 CoD because of loadouts...would be like calling Mass Effect Fable, because Mass Effect uses Fable's consiquence idea to expand gameplay. I mean c'mon guys...there isn't one game out there that hasn't used anothers idea in some form or another.

Constantly, you have a pretty big ego there pal. Halo 2 was inferior to Reach in all ways. Albeit technical, layout for maps, weapon mechanics...I could go on and list a full 7 pages about how Reach improved upon every technical aspect of the game from Halo 2, Halo 3 and ODST. For the record, you cannot compare the skill factor across game titles. Every single title plays differently than the last and as such, there will be people who excel and people who do not. Your "skill" as you all call it, depends on how well you can truly utilize and adapt to the mechanics that the particular title presents to you. Saying things like "You will get raped in halo 2, and thats why you want Halo 4 to be like Reach", would be like me telling you that you didn't want Halo 3 to be like Halo 1, because I would rape the hell out of you with the sniper. yes I was that good with the sniper in halo 1....I was part of CñR for over a year..... Halo 4 is going to be very very very different from any other Halo title. I think the community got a little confused or even hopeful when they heard the words "We are making Halo 4 with the solid core gameplay of the older titles". Taking that phrase alone, can mean a lot of different things to many people. Older gamers around before Halo, can look at that statement and say to themselves that "Halo will be an evolution of the previous game, but core basics like gametypes and weapon usage will remain linear". While later gamers, that came in during Halo 3 or Reach, will read that and say "Oh yeah!!! Core basics and shiz...it's going to play just halo 'whatever' ". To a developer, keeping core basics means keeping things that the community has become used to over all the titles. Things like "weapon bloom", "playlists", general weapon mechanics and physics handling. Etc... While yes I will agree that because of the lack of information available, it will ultimately lead the community to be mislead in their thoughts and desires in terms of the game and it's route. It is only natural that without proper information, people will panic and go off on tantrums. It's the nature of the beast, and in the end we are all entitles to our own opinions based on what we "CAN" see.

Actually iPro that is completely false. Halo 2 could be an arcade game very easily. In order for Halo 2 to become an arcade game, they would have to write a brand new emulator to be compatable with the current dashboard and library of the code base. The only thing that would be missing from the arcade title, would be the matchmaking. Matchmaking would require the studio to update or re-write the netcode to be compatable with current version of Live. The whole reason Halo 2 was taken down to begin with was because fo the nagging time and resources it took to update the emulation and to keep it's netcode compatable with the evolution of the Live platform. Once it became no longer possible to keep every title supported in terms of direction and progress, 1st generation xbox titles had to be removed. The only reason Halo 2 pc still works is because the version of Live in use, is designated and designed to provide only a shell form of friend contacts and direction for your gamertag. In no way shape or form does Live direct, control or directly utilize the halo 2 resources.

There in lies the problem Biggles. Even if we do see more solid footage, you cannot be 100% guaranteed that what you see in the vid, is how it will feel or atually play out. In the past, the only proper way to guage a game is to play a Beta, or tweak a current game to match what you see on the vid and hope it is close enough for you to play it and get a general feel. If I can get a hold of any map content period in any form, I will solemnly swear to post up my decompiling findings about tags and settings, and hope that thru that, I can explain how and when things will happen. But all that aside, everyone needs to relax a bit. Everyone is entitles to his/her opinion about and based upon, what information we have seen thus far. Not everyone is going to respond well to it, and by judging them and bashing them, we become no better than the next guy in line talking about the subject.

Final Fantasy VII. Member below me, What is your favorite instrument?

Nope...although the reaper does livith in the shadows.... Next up....Donut?

Germany. me and Mayhem both rock the Black, Red and Yellow. Member below me, if your name was that of a porn star, please use the following to answer what it would be.... First pets name (first name) First street you lived on, or current street (last name)

Welcome to the forums Pancake. I hope you enjoy your stay with us. BTW, is that pancakes with syrup? MMMMMMMM....

First off, it depends on the gametype you were playing. If you want me to kindly and properly explain why you spawned where you did, I need more info then just OMG-I-FINZ-SPWND-RPAD-BY-GYZ-4-TIMZ!!!!! I need to know exact details.... what team game was it? What was the score? What section did you respawn in? All these things matter.

True that Azaxx. When I talk about making a living... I mean living completely independent of your parents or roommates etccc. Im not talkinv about college kids. Secondly, I know exactly how the devs tbink and I was around before the Halo community really took off. Forge? Please. Im a true map maker and programmer. Ive made more.commjnity content above Bungie grade than you could possibly dream. Anyone who sees the future of the Halo franchise as going the same old tired route of Halo 2 and 3 are either too blinded by previous heydays, or are afraid of change. If these people who make a livinv are true to their MLG fame....in terms of skill, then their "skill" should show across all titles...not one single title in particular. To me, tbat shows no true range of skill. A one bit wonder if you will.

I don't see what the big issue is. Even if the information were true, so what? It's a game and it evolves like everything else. And no offense, but show me one single person who lives off of solely playing Halo for a living outside the owners of MLG. MLG is a hobby "sport" that you "can" make some money from. Leading people to believe that players solely play and make money to live from MLG games is very misleading. Even the top players or tourney winners have to rely on a steady normal job to support themselves. All that aside, if Halo had evolved the way it should have, it would be the Infinity Ward or Crytek guys copying off of us now. If you wanna blame someone for holding the franchise back from evolving quicker than it should have, look no further than the fractured community. BTW, Hey ShockGasm...can you believe this is going to be the last season of Bleach?!?! Like wtf man?!? Ichigo just gets his Spiritual Pressure back adn now it's the last season?!?

Referring to me are we?

Rest assured modding via jtags and mod chips is quite alive and well over XBL. There is little that can be done aince banning is done via console ID....and modded boxes can have replacemwnt ID's written to them.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it wont happen. The amount of data for.the player base just from Halo is likely in the hundreds of terabytes. Think of all the profiles people have created over the five years alone just for Halo 3. Neither Microsoft nor 343i will want to now house, maintain and provide new data protocols for this amount of information. You have to look at it from both a companies fiscal and gamers perspective. It is not financially beneficial nor beneficial to the community to waste resources and development time into this. I know it may seem wrong, but there comes a time in every titles life, that you just need to.wipe the slate clean and go on. Halo is no.exception and as previously stated, this is simply the begining. Excluding titles prior to Reach is a move to ensure proper storage, dispersal and collecting of newer title data. Halo 3 servers will shut down once Hali 4 is released and transition of newer services goes into effect. It is just the way of the beast I am afraid.

Spawn placement is not an easy subject matter. The spawn zones, individual spawn flags, respawn zones and so forth are a lot more tricky than just dropping them down and that's it. While yes, some spawn locations or zones may not work for every gametype, but there is not a whole lot that can be done about it. There is a limited amount of netgame flags that they can use to designate spawns and zones. Some maps just don't have a well enough layout to give you a 100% guaranteed working spawn placement. If you think that for one minute spawn placing is easy, you are dead wrong. Spawn dropping in Forge is completely different than in the sandbox in which it is done before final map compiling. Instead of calling people and developers names, why not simply send 343 a nice e-mail message outlining the issue areas kindly, and give them some positive direction to work towards? Noone is going to take you seriously if all you do is curse and put things down.