Bloody Initiate

OP doesn't understand Trueskill. Never did, probably never will. This is the case with nearly everyone I've seen talking about it. You don't understand its purpose, so you don't understand that you aren't supposed to see it, and you continually fail to understand that Halo 3's success had little or nothing to do with visible Trueskill. Finally, you don't comprehend the possibility that visible trueskill did more damage than good to the Halo franchise.

It wasn't even "major" in Halo 3. People didn't do it unless they were forced to by the team duals gametype, or if they had maulers, which felt different from any other dual wield.

BR should be 4-shot, might also need a very slight RoF decrease to make sure its kill time doesn't drop so drastically that it becomes the best at both mid and close range. The BR should get just enough of a damage boost that it takes 11 bullets (3.67 bursts) to drop shields and the 12th has to go to the head in order to make a 4-shot kill. Carbine should also get a damage boost. BR only makes sense with a 4-shot kill though. Should never have been dropped to 5-shot. For some reason 343 wanted us reloading a lot. I really will never understand why, but for some reason they thought people should be crippled by fights even when they win them soundly. Instead we have to reload more (they took 1 bullet out of the DMR's clip too, and made the carbine 8-shot, so it has fewer kills-per-clip than any other marksman rifle) and we have to wait 6 seconds before our shields begin recharging. Here's some fun numbers: Almost every weapon in the game kills in less time than two (2) seconds. It takes two (2) seconds for your shields to fully recharge AFTER they begin charging which takes 6 seconds. So every fight takes less than 2 seconds but you have to wait 8 seconds to be ready for another. Thus every fight endangers you for four times the amount of time it took to actually resolve the fight. In that 8 seconds you probably have to reload because 343 wants you to reload a lot, and everyone respawns instantly (So they're back in the field 1 second after you killed them) and has 7 seconds to find you and kill you, they also all sprint and there is more than one enemy. Why talk about all that other stuff? Because more than ever you want any sliver of time you can get, and you want to keep your weapon ready as often as possible. Thus no wise player who wants to win will use a 5-shot BR because it kills slower AND reloads more often. You want a weapon that kills fast and reloads rarely. A 4-shot BR kills faster and reloads more rarely, even with a slower RoF it would still be better than the 5-shot piece of trash we have now.

Yeah OP I'm afraid it's not clear to me what you're talking about. I distinctly recall in Halo 3 killing people in the time it took for a grenade to explode and damage them (tenth of a second?). I'd plant the 'nade which they'd walk into and I'd fire at the same time it exploded. In Halo 3 the bullets actually had travel time and weren't hitscan, so by the time my bullets made it to their face the grenade would have removed their shields. Plasma grenades were very good for it because they didn't make the more audible "clink" of frag grenades. You'd plant them just on your side of a door frame or railing so your enemy wouldn't see anything and they'd walk in. The grenade would detonate just in time to nail the headshot. It was probably the thing I was best at as far as scoring kills, I could 4-shot but I've never had a good strafe so I kinda hit a maximum effectiveness with BR combat. I could frag'n'tag with the best of them though, it was where I scored most of my kills against better players since I wouldn't be able to out-BR them. I also loved fighting from lower end of a ramp. I could throw a frag to hit the ramp so it would bounce up in my enemy's face and detonate mid-air. By the time the frag was in their face I'd already sent my bullets their way, when it detonated my bullets found their mark and ended their life instantly. Just as fast a headshot with a sniper rifle (1 frame), just more complicated (Yet somehow just as easy since you didn't need to acquire a power weapon). I didn't play Halo 2 online hardly at all, but I recall the fuse times on CE's frags being a bit longer. The weapons in this game do seem to have higher rates of fire, but the delay between throwing and shooting doesn't seem that different. The guns in this game aren't doing much damage per shot, but you are firing more times in the same period of time as previously. Perhaps that is what you are noticing? That or you're still one-shot from the first time you took damage in Halo 4 and your shield hasn't begun recharging yet.

When teams are good the games go the same way on every map. Obviously one team will win and so there are differences that make one side win in one game and another in another game, but eventually people narrow down the best approaches to each map and they ONLY take those approaches. The reason every game feels the same on Ragnarok is because a lot of people played that map for 2-3 years and they know what they need to do. The difference with Ragnarok is they enjoy doing it. Games follow a predictable pattern, but in a good map it's at least an enjoyable pattern. Sniping and DMRing ARE fun. People DO like that. It beats Exile, where the predictable pattern is "Whomever spawns on light side will annihilate with the Gauss Hog." Or Vortex where the pattern is "I will have a horrible time and some stuff will happen in Bravo." Or Longbow where the pattern is "I might snipe and DMR while we fight over Bravo" Or Meltdown where the pattern is "The spawns or the flow of this map will eventually surround me and end anything good I get going." The fact is Ragnarok is fun because you start with your enemy on one side of you, generally they stay on that side of you, and the variety of encounter ranges allows for a variety of fights. People DO still just sort of fight over hill, but there is more than one approach to that. They also have fights at Pelican and turret. Ragnarok is the only map in Halo 4 that doesn't play like a Halo 4 map. You may argue it gets repetitive, but every map does. Halo 4 maps are designed to have NO strong spots, to maximize movement while minimizing camping. "Camping" in this case is defined as sitting still for any reason. You can't camp when every location on a map is open to a dozen angles of attack. Even in spots where there are only 1-2 approaches to them, they're designed so those approaches are far enough apart from each other that you can't switch between them quickly (AKA can't defend both at once). Halo 4 maps ARE in fact very much like Call of Duty maps. Ragnarok isn't. It also may play the same way every time, but it DOES NOT play the same as every other Halo 4 map, which was my original argument. I don't care if you get bored playing Ragnarok, I was talking about getting bored playing every other map in Halo 4. I'm not bored of them all yet, but Ragnarok is the only one that plays any differently from any other.

I consider Valhalla/Ragnarok the best Halo map ever made. As for why people love it in Halo 4, it actually makes a lot of sense. It is the ONLY remake in this game, it is an extremely faithful remake, and there's something important about that fact. Specifically, Valhalla/Ragnarok was made for a different game by a different team, and each Halo game has a sort of theme with their maps that makes them identifiable as originating from that game. So in Halo 4 they deliberately designed the maps for run'n'gun gameplay. There is a definite feel and flow to Halo 4's maps and it differs a lot from previous games. Like this or not, the difference is undeniable, and people probably like play ragnarok because it's the only Halo 4 map that doesn't feel like a Halo 4 map. They may love Halo 4 maps, but still like variety, or they may hate Halo 4 maps, and desire that step back to a different map design philosophy. To sum up, Ragnarok is unlike any other map in Halo 4, and people will want to play it no matter what because love or hate Halo 4's maps, everyone likes someting different every now and then.

I remember playing "Fear" for PC at college and there was a gun called the penetrator that fired projectiles that pinned foes to walls when it made a kill shot. It was about as good as an assault rifle for damage and practicality, but the kill animation always involved the person's body being flung back and pinned to something + rag doll physics. They also had a gun whose kill shot made the person into a charred skeleton. It all just ends up depending on the game and where the developers want to spend their time I guess. I'm actually OK with not having more elaborate kill animations in Halo, just because it sucks being on the receiving end of someone else's awesome animation.

I like that the forerunner weapons come with distinct melt-a-mofo sound effects so that I know when my teammate just got himself incinerated by a scattershot and I should therefore NOT go in there.

I don't think they were hacking, I think it's a glitch over which no one has any control. I know because I joined a flood game in progress on Haven the other day and had an AR and a magnum. I was seriously confused about what team I was on, because I didn't look like a flood and neither did my teammates, but I had an AR instead of a shotgun. I spotted a teammate running across top mid firing his AR at nothing in particular. Next I heard "Last Man Standing" and saw the nav point direct me to said last man. I zoomed in with my magnum on the last man who was crouching behind a pillar unaware of my presence, and killed him a with a couple shots + headshot. Game over, we won, infection? I am not a hacker, nor have I ever been or will I ever be. But I definitely spawned with an AR and a magnum as a flood and infected the last man standing with a pistol. For a moment I wondered if it was a variant gametype of flood, like they had in Halo 3. Pretty sure it was just a glitch though.

I'm flattered you thought I deserved a thread, although it was a bit weird to see a topic with my name. I thought the forums were glitching. Good things about War Games... I have a lot of things: I like that the full arsenal of vehicles in Halo 4 debuted at the same time as Halo 4. We got a map with a Gauss Hog and a Scorpion, a map with a Rocket Hog and a Wraith, two with a Banshee, and my beloved Mantis! I love Promethean Vision. I get such a kick out of seeing exactly where people are and what they're wielding AND THEN telling my teammates! That way my teammates can run whatever AAs they want and I have a ton of information to call out. I'm actually really hoping to see a shotgun or boltshot around a corner one day and then tell my hardlight shield teammate to go in after him. I really like the DMR. It's a seriously reliable rifle, and that is what makes a good rifle even IRL. It occurred to me the pistol in Halo CE's biggest problem wasn't that it was too good, it was that something has to fill that void of mid-range combat. Both Bungie and 343 understand this and so in every game since we have had a reliable mid-range weapon. Even in ODST we had that badass little pistol that could headshot grunts and jackals so we could save bigger ammo for tougher foes. I like the Promethean Weapons. I like how they're all just slightly unusual and have unique features when compared to their human and forerunner counterparts. I like sprinting, and I like respawning instantly. I like that the motion tracker shows me clearly when someone is on a different elevation. They all change the game quite a bit, but it feels good that the first two are optional. You can play faster if you want, but you also have the choice to slow down (Might be good idea btw, I found myself playing better when I sprinted less) Solace is a good map, I didn't like Abandon at first but it's grown on me, Complex can be ridiculously fun for a ghost if no one packs a plasma pistol, especially in objective games. Haven is also a good map but people love that one already. Bringing back Valhalla is one of the few times I've been 100% in favor of a map returning. Best map in the history of Halo. Off to do some Christmas shopping I think. Have a lovely evening folks.

I already tested it, that's why I make the claims I do, because I've actually done this. Wanna know my results? It's simple, 110% damage makes the BR 4-shot but I don't know whether it's taking 10, 11, or 12 bullets to kill because I didn't slow it down in theater. For comparing kill times that's not important, because the BR will fire 4 bursts before the DMR fires 4 shots. You don't need a stopwatch for that information. That served MY purpose of making the BR 4-shot and the Carbine 7-shot. +10% was a bit too much for a blanket boost though, as I said earlier in this thread when I first posted this information. The BR might be fine with an +8% boost or something instead, but that isn't available to players in customs. It also perfectly fit my preferred arrangement of weapons. The BR DOES shread the DMR when it's 4-shot - inside the BR's ideal range. Outside that range the DMR's accuracy and semi-automatic firing mode keep its kill time exactly where it was at mid-range, but the BR's declines. Which again is exactly what I want. I've said it over and over again in this thread, I don't want one gun to just sit atop the others. I want them all to serve a purpose and be strong when they're in their element. Mid-range is the BR and Carbine's element. Long-range is the DMR's. Long-range is actually the lightrifle's, but the lightrifle's damage model is uniquely variable where no other gun's is. The DMR's damage doesn't change at any range, so it remains a practical weapon which can engage and contend at all ranges, but it doesn't dominate in any specific range. Jack of all Trades, Master of None and all that. I'm cool with that. The problem is that is not how things are now. That's the whole point of the thread, and what I've also said over and over again.

Well actually Dawn Wolf countered them a bit for me. What it comes down to is how much of Halo 4 you accept as "legit Halo" or whatever. There's a guy over in the MLG section of this forum who put together some MLG settings for Halo 4. I haven't looked it over carefully because it's a very big post and also outside my interest range, but he says one thing that I like very much. The reason I like what he says is because he respects that each game must have an identity of its own. Some things about the game, even if a lot of people don't like them, must stay or you risk taking steps backward instead of forward. The boltshot is definitely unique being a 1sk weapon which you can place in your opening loadout. Where you and I differ is that I don't think that disqualifies it, I think that's the WHOLE POINT of it. Never before has there been such a weapon in Halo history. Never until now. It's that point in the argument where you both know all the facts and you find out that the other person just feels differently than you do. It was never an issue of one person not knowing, it was the original issue of them disagreeing. For me, having a 1sk weapon off of spawn isn't a gamebreaker, for you it is. There is a "PV is OP" thread right now which argues that Promethean Vision is Overpowered. Rather than disagree with the initial jist, I just like the game better with PV in it. I feel the same way about the boltshot. I just think it makes the game better rather than worse, or at least differentiates Halo 4 from its predecessors in a zero-sum way.

Without straying at all from the parameters in your first sentence, I can confidently say just making it 4-shot will do that. It really is pretty inaccurate at range and its recoil gets a lot more noticeable too. It also has NO chance at extreme range, where the DMR and the lightrifle are completely safe from everything but snipers, Gauss Hogs, and Scorpion tanks. That being said, I inserted that disclaimer for a reason. As has already been discussed making it 4-shot gives it an edge on CQB weapons as well as in mid-range. I never argued that making the BR 4-shot was the only thing this game needed. If I knew the kill times on the AR, Suppressor, and Storm Rifle at 100% damage, 101% damage, 110% damage, etc. and the same info on the BR's bursts, I'd be able to much more effectively suggest solutions. The thing is I don't and it wouldn't matter if I did because I don't work for 343 patching their games. THEY DO have that information though. I just hope they do the right things with it, because they also are the only ones with the power to fine-tune this sort of stuff. I don't see it happening though, or at least I don't see it happening right. So I just get good w/my DMR and hope they don't take that away. That's the pessimist's perspective anyway, I much prefer to hope they'll just perfect everything, but I have no idea what they will or won't do. I only have their history as a means of predicting them. If I ever get a big customs party together I'm going to test a gametype with 110% damage and a 4 second shield recharge delay in Big Team scenarios. I think the variety of encounter ranges will allow for different weapons to shine as well as gloss over the crudeness of a 10% damage boost. I think most weapons that need boosts don't need boosts higher than 10% or even a full 10%, which is a bit of a back-handed compliment. 343 got the weapons within 10% of where they should be in my opinion, that's a pretty small difference between what I consider ideal and where things are now. I think that BTB custom will be excellent though.

Someone posted a minigame on the Bungie forums awhile back where you had to click when a sheep zoomed across the screen. They put it in a thread where they wanted people to test their reaction times and post their Halo 3 rank to see if there was any correlation. I was safely above average in Halo 3 but my reaction time was something like 2.2 seconds. Me too. Except the agreement part. I just meant I'm gonna use this thing until it stops being practical to do so.

...which doesn't refute his point. No one is going to want to fire 6 shots when they can fire 5. The carbine is already rarely used, and I think it has been ever since it was introduced to the game (I can't be sure because I didn't play a lot of Halo 2 online).

I don't know the answers to these questions, but I did see a series of videos on Youtube where the guy making the video used the DMR scope to gauge distance. It's funny how few people I've seen doing the same, since it's extremely simple and kinda brilliant therefore. I recommend it for anyone wanting to test this stuff. I also don't know how many body-WIDTHS the boltshot kills within (Not singling anyone out with that correction, but it bothered me quite a bit when someone kept saying lengths in another thread), but I have at least seen ample proof its 1HK range is outside the 1HK range of both the shotgun and the scattershot. As I've said, that's the one thing I can see reducing, and even without reducing its kill range you still usually get killed by shotguns/scattershots when you have a boltshot because they can fire first and they can fire often. They also all use the same tactics, and generally when two enemies are using the same tactics the person who can afford to make more mistakes wins. As for average human reaction time, I expect that information is available in lots of places online. I know when they post videos of starlings (a murmur..ation?) they tend to highlight the difference between human reaction time and the reaction times of the starlings. Whether the information posted in this thread resembles that which is available elsewhere I also don't know. Just brainstorming where people could get the info if they actually want it.

I mean no offense or disrespect, but I fear you have completely missed the forest for the trees, so to speak, as well as missed the point. There are many more elements in this game giving you hard time than the boltshot, I know this without knowing anything about your playstyle or preferences. Those elements make dealing with the boltshot harder. First off, I don't rely on my radar to murder people with the boltshot. I rely on Promethean Vision to do it instead. Not joking or trolling, that's what I do. I use the boltshot in situations where I don't have PV, but I'm not nearly as successful. Promethean Vision lets you line up a shot before entering line of sight, which is HUGE on charge-up 1HK weapons like the boltshot and the railgun. Timing is EVERYTHING with those guns, and when you don't have to expose yourself to your enemy to time your shot, you relax and and focus, which is exactly what you need to do. It's an enormous difference. Do people still do well with the boltshot without Promethean Vision? Of course they do, many of them are much better than I am. The point is that radar isn't your problem, because a lot of the players who are better than I am don't need it at all. I think you've just completely misunderstood what people are using radar for and what is giving you problems. It's not "feeding" anyone, the game is. I'll explain more later. I also don't understand your focus on the motion tracker as "the problem" whenever it's been in every single Halo game since CE and it doesn't seem that much better or worse in this game than it has ever been. Back to the boltshot though, I don't think you'd hate it so much if a lot of other factors weren't forcing you up against it so often. What those factors are I won't bother getting into in this thead because I've already spent a lot of time talking about other things than the topic. I've also spent a lot of time talking about those other things in other threads. While people may differ from me on whether they like the bigger changes in Halo 4, no one is disputing the existence of those changes, and they CAN'T dispute the impact those changes have on the game. In smaller maps you're going to have more problems with the boltshot and CQB in general, but usually in Halo you can exert some influence over the distance at which you fight most of the time. That remains true in Halo 4 but with limits. Whereas in Reach people could just rush you and punch you twice in the face, in Halo 4 someone is always coming for you. They know where you are and they're on their way. That forces you to constantly move, and THAT gives boltshots and other CQB tactics an opportunity to sit still and wait for someone just like you. At least you can take comfort knowing they don't survive long after they kill you, because no one does in this game, least of all someone who stays in the same place for too long. Finally, all of that I just explained is not an issue with the boltshot nearly so much as with the way Halo 4 plays. Like it or not, it is what it is.

DMR and boltshot or DMR and plasma pistol, depending on the playlist/map. I like the DMR, but I wish I had a good reason to use something else sometimes.

I'm still one-shot from when I was playing last night.

For me the only reasonable-sounding nerf is decreasing its range to slightly within the range of shotguns and scattershots (So that it loses to those guns if you both fire as soon as you're in 1HK range). Making it shoot + melee is completely unacceptable (makes the gun completely pointless and utterly useless), making it use its whole clip won't actually change much, and most ideas involving the word "exponential' seem very likely fueled by anger rather than a serious interest in improving the game. I also wouldn't mind if you showed up on radar/decloaked when you charge it, because honestly I thought you already decloaked when charging weapons. It was one of those thoughts I had about the game before I played it. Kinda like the BR being good for mid-range. I obviously have since learned this is not the case, but I was OK with it before when it wasn't the case, so I wouldn't really notice now. Further concerning the boltshot user showing up on radar/decloaking while charging: I think this will actually make very little difference as far as boltshots go. I don't think people are often surprised by the boltshot. They may be caught in a situation where they can't get out of its range in time, but they knew it was there. Usually what happens is game circumstances force you into its range (2 enemies behind you, 1 in front of you, but the one in front of you has a boltshot) or you enter its range willingly because you believe you can outmaneuver it. Sometimes you also just make a bad call, but that gets you killed no matter what the other guy is using. I don't like that it can kill a shotgun or a scattershot outside their effective ranges, but those two guns also frequently kill outside their effective ranges by firing more than once in succession. You don't get a second shot with the boltshot before someone kills you, so it doesn't feel as imbalanced as people make it sound. I speak from a slightly apathetic position though, because I think its power - and the frustration stemming from it - are a little blown out proportion/fed by other factors. For example, if Halo 4 didn't already make people so angry, they probably wouldn't get so much angrier when a boltshot kills them.

I enjoy Team Regicide, but like many of the objective gametypes I eventually find it very frustrating without a team. That's not a bad thing per se, just a thing that keeps me from thinking it definitely should be a permanent playlist. I really don't mind the idea of rotating playlists or whatever, because you get variety with some consistency instead of the complete randomness of an Action Sack playlist. I imagine I will be sad when one of the rotating playlists turns out to be my favorite, and then it goes away after a few weeks, but I understand the price of sampling new things is that you can't keep everything you like. The point is that you found out you liked it, and what you liked about it.

I think it's much more likely that PV is just based on the fantasy many people have had of seeing through objects. Kinda like being super strong or flying, it's a super power. The hack was based on fantasy super powers too. To pretend game developers had never heard of seeing through walls before they heard someone created a hack to do it is laughable at best. As for its power, I agree it is very powerful, but its uses are also very obvious and it's completely thwarted by the stealth perk. I agree that 343 obviously knew they were doing something game-changing with PV and they did put that Stealth perk in just to counter it, but the steatlh perk COMPLETELY counters it, which creates a situation where PV becomes an AA which only gives you an edge some of the time. As more people level up more people will run Stealth, and then you'll look at your AA choices in your loadout and say "Which would be best?" rather than "I can't do without PV," because you know about half the players in the game will be invisible to your PV. Remember also that without a specialization code you get Wetwork or Operator, those are your two choices. How many people who play small maps do you think will pick Operator first? The Stealth perk is going to become more and more common, and PV will become less common as people learn not to trust it as much. Personally I love PV. I think it's an excellent feature for a shooter game and improves it tremendously. You want to speed up a game? Forget all the crap they do in competitive gametypes, LET PLAYERS SEE THROUGH WALLS. Bam, now everyone knows where everyone else is and you have a game where the action will never stop and you cannot hide. You can still set up ambushes and stuff, because players being able to see you doesn't stop you from having the upper hand, just the element of surprise. Too bad 343 didn't stop at PV, it was good enough to do the job, but they went on and screwed a bunch of stuff up in order to make sure people never got a break. PV is awesome, and I think it's better than OP, it's completely game-changing. "Overpowered" is a term used by crude posers like the boltshot. Promethean Vision is all Halo 4 needed to become a brand new game. Too bad 343 didn't figure that much out. Here's some proof, someone actually already based an ENTIRE GAME on the idea of seeing through walls: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWWV3bX8LF4 If they rewind Halo and remove a lot of the stupid stuff they did, I hope PV stays in Halo. At least that way I never again have to explain how easy it is to deal with campers to someone whining about campers (It's always been easy, long before you could see through walls). I can also keep laughing my *** off every time I see an IDIOT crouching with a boltshot hoping I'll wander around the corner, hoping I don't see him, hoping for chrissakes that I didn't equip PV. THAT'S Halo 4, not sprinting everywhere respawning instantly and waiting 6 seconds for your shields to come back. PV is the best new thing in this game, and that makes it the thing that defines this game.

A 6-shot DMR is not the way to go. It may be easy patch, but it's a patch that creates the same problem just with a different gun. If you nerf the DMR you get the lightrifle as the premier long-range weapon (no more contest due to DMR's versatility, which is its primary edge on the lightrifle) and a bunch of other rifles that fumble around medium and small maps. BR and Carbine would definitely come up in the world, but they won't be any better. Also please keep in mind that versatility in a weapon isn't a bad thing. The fact that the DMR can contend at any range isn't the problem, the problem is that it actually dominates at most ranges. It's good to have a versatile gun, it lets a lot of players relax about their loadout choices and gives newer players (necessary to the continued life of any game) a good platform from which to begin their Halo experience, while allowing them to jump off once they find a gun better suited to their playstyle. That's why you don't nerf the DMR. It's the landmark. You use it to keep your point of reference as you tweak other guns. Lightrifle is better at long range. Good. BR and Carbine are SUPPOSED to be better at mid-range, that's good too. Automatic weapons SHOULD be better at close range. The DMR should generally lose to these guns at their intended ranges, but generally beat them when they're outside of those ranges. Why the DMR? Because it's versatile, unlike the lightrifle which fits its own niche, and they got it right, unlike the BR which lays down like a b***h. If they had made the Carbine king then we'd be talking about bringing everything up to the carbine's level. Instead they got the DMR right, so we bring the BR and the Carbine up to its level.

Now that you remember, I think you'll love this gun. It's probably just as good as a rocket launcher, maybe a bit weaker, but with a fun twist that makes you glad you picked it up every time. I think I find a reason to smile every time I use this thing.

Funny I found myself agreeing with your numbers, but for some reason I want the game to be so much better. 8/10 sounds about right. That's really pretty good. It's a very good game. So was Reach. I just thought the multiplayer somehow got its details neglected. They put forth a solid chassis, but didn't seem to try very hard to polish the thing. Someone said "Why not 5 shots instead" and somehow no one else argued with them. Or someone said "I know let's leave them one-shot for EVER" and no one said "No." Overall though I've been enjoying the multiplayer. I haven't played a lot of Spartan Ops, but I agree with everything you said about it EXCEPT the repeated maps. I just know they can only include so many maps in a game, and unless you design your game to randomly generate maps you're going to hit that limit. Barely touched forge yet, can't speak to its aptitude. Will only touch the campaign as much as I have to in order to clear out my achievements, I couldn't take that campaign as a brand new creation on its own, it exists in the shadow of former greatness. I actually thought Reach's campaign was excellent, so even the game whose multiplayer I couldn't suffer through exceeded this game's campaign by soo much. I feel like a jerk seeing a game as an 8/10 and still demanding more, just hard to overlook the wrinkles and warts I suppose.