The very essence of competitive Halo, gone?

[Jaculah]

I haven't completely absorbed all the information there is on the 1-50 rank system and the additional specs. That being said, I think that specs is great on all accounts except for the mod concept that will differentiate players during games. Will this not narrow down the skill paradigm even further from Reach?

 

The difference in true skill between players is of course the same as it always have been, where some are beginners and some are professionals, but as the Halo series has progressed, the effective "competence" of all players has become more and more uniform, to the point where in Reach, complete beginners can easily kill you because of concepts like Armor Lock, Jet Pack etcetera. The mod system in Halo 4 seems to be a heavier version of Reach's little mods.

 

My own skill is tantamount to a semi-pro, and I personally have felt all the way from Halo 2 that for every new release in the series I have had less "edge" over my average skilled opponents. Will Halo 4 Specs not demand even less skill to be an effective killer? What are your thoughts on this?

 

(Halo Reach is a complete disaster, where in lack of a ranking system all together, I seldom experience a game where no one quits; also, when searching in Super Slayer by yourself you can get matched with 3 random players who probably rented the game the day before, and matched against a full team of semi-professional gamers.)

[Sikslik7]

I am sure that Halo 4 is much more even than we think. Frankly, we are hearing nuggets of info and we can't see the whole picture, so we are mad and confused about aspects we haven't seen or used with. I am sure it will be fine, but I think that we should air on caution for now.

[SternuS]

I don't really see the reason of this.

First, you say that since Halo 2, every game has a worse Rank system? Every game?

Including Halo 3, wich was almost the same of Halo 2?

Including Wars, that has no n00bs because of not being an FPS (the only lack i can see is being a RTS on console, but is well organized and well playable)? Including ODST, that has little or no multiplayer, if you exclude Firefight?

 

You can easily say that you don't like Reach. But don't throw bad reputation on all of the other games for nothing.

And just because Reach, in your opinion, has a bad ranking system, it doesn't necessarily means that also Halo 4 will.

[Twinreaper]

Competition is not.determined by a number or rank, but the quality of the overall individual you are facing in each engagemant. Reach was bar far not a disaster. More games have been played on Reach than Halo 3 if you compare the time to.exact time. This.was proven by statistical.data provided by Bungie at the end of the server and asset migration.

 

Aa's are not at fault for.you not being able to.combat them.effectively. Quite frankly I am tired of hearing fanboy pro's whine about how they could not adapt their play style to.combat armor abities. Its always the fault of someone else or the devs when it comes to glory whores. Take reaponsability for your own wreckless actions in combat. And dont try throwing skill talk or rank.talk at me about it....you still got schooled by someone.

 

Furthermore, just because you are a pro or semi pro, does not.mean that you out skill everyone in every fashion. There is always something to be learned by playing anyone at any skill level.

[Ryu♥Hayabusa]

Competition is not.determined by a number or rank, but the quality of the overall individual you are facing in each engagemant. Reach was bar far not a disaster. More games have been played on Reach than Halo 3 if you compare the time to.exact time. This.was proven by statistical.data provided by Bungie at the end of the server and asset migration.

 

Aa's are not at fault for.you not being able to.combat them.effectively. Quite frankly I am tired of hearing fanboy pro's whine about how they could not adapt their play style to.combat armor abities. Its always the fault of someone else or the devs when it comes to glory whores. Take reaponsability for your own wreckless actions in combat. And dont try throwing skill talk or rank.talk at me about it....you still got schooled by someone.

 

Furthermore, just because you are a pro or semi pro, does not.mean that you out skill everyone in every fashion. There is always something to be learned by playing anyone at any skill level.

Well said, you took the words right from me.

 

It is not the Dev's fault you can not learn to watch the skies or back up from Armor Lock. Armor Lock is not in Halo 4, and Jet Pack is a lot less powerful. Your argument on that is invalid. I mean, realistically, would we not have soldiers using modifications and abilities in combat? Because we already do. Halo: Reach's armor abilities were not very good, granted, but Halo 4's armor abilities have been developed as long as the game. They are very balanced. I'll break it down for you.

 

Promethean Vision: It has a lot shorter range than any videos you have watched. They nerfed it after all the playtests you saw. It can only see through one wall. No cross mapping either way. It takes longer to recharge now. No videos currently show this change yet.

 

Jet Pack: It has also been nerfed. It is more of a large boost for your jump. It might be like Reach's Jet Pack but with less than half the fly-time. It could be a single boost that takes 3 seconds to recharge. All we know is that people like you killed it. Either way, it should help you have less to worry about. Which is a bad thing. Now less skill is needed to kill Jet Packers. Feel skilled now?

 

Armor Lock: It is out. Not in Halo 4. O.o

 

The ranking system puts Halo 2's system to shame. I'll give you a bit of fact. You earn XP to rank up. Each rank nets you Spartan Points to buy loadout items. This XP is earned by completing matches, winning, and doing good in a game. Here is some speculation: It is likely that kills, deaths, snipes, assassinations, splatters, etc. all count towards or take from this. Which means you can probably rank down. That is my belief. I hope that is the system. It answers all problems and makes boosting that much harder. Maybe it's what we have in store, maybe not. Let's hope it is.

 

If anything, Reach was a step in the right direction, but that step landed in a puddle. Now look at Halo 4. It feels like Halo 3, but has Sprint and AA's. If it's gameplay isn't better than Halo 3, you likely need to become an indie game developer. That's your only hope for those mechanics to come back.

 

In a nutshell, you aren't as skilled as you think you are. I thought I was good until I ran into a couple of fellows who could whip me blindfolded. There are people out there who can and will own you.

[Jaculah]

I am not complaining, nor am I too proud to admit there are better players out there than me. I love all the Halo games, and I just want to share my opinions of past ranking systems and my potential skepticism to future ones.

 

I just don't think it is appropriate to match beginners with, and against, players who may have been playing the game and series for years. And I do not need your approval to keep my firm belief that Reach's system is a complete disaster. What other reason can there be for the extreeeeeme amount of quitters in Match Making? This means I've got the bulk of Halo players to agree with me on the fact that it is not enjoyable for any and both parties when you either get players on your team that will definately make you lose or meet players who are lightyears ahead in skill. This fact, coupled with the fact that there is nothing of value (like a rank) to lose if you quit, is the reason to the unusually high amount of quitters. The Halo 2 and 3 system and its flaws were insignificant in comparison with Reach's systems shortcomings. I think, however, that Halo 4 will be a lot better in this regard, since there actually is a ranking system which invokes in players the will to win, and not to quit. And, if I am not mistaken, there will be a feature called join-in-progress, am I right? I am super excited to see how it will work.

 

Still though I am playing, and loving, all the Halo games.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Jaculah

[Ryu♥Hayabusa]

Just because you see more complaints than appraisals doesn't mean the bulk agrees with you. Why should I make a thread about how much I like a game? I have reason to say I hate it, but a thread on what I like isn't going anywhere. The cold Hard fact is, the assumption that the bulk agree with you, has been used and debunked many times. Other than that, I wholeheartedly agree that Halo 4 is highly anticipated and a mystery to all.

[iRush God]

I haven't completely absorbed all the information there is on the 1-50 rank system and the additional specs. That being said, I think that specs is great on all accounts except for the mod concept that will differentiate players during games. Will this not narrow down the skill paradigm even further from Reach?

 

The difference in true skill between players is of course the same as it always have been, where some are beginners and some are professionals, but as the Halo series has progressed, the effective "competence" of all players has become more and more uniform, to the point where in Reach, complete beginners can easily kill you because of concepts like Armor Lock, Jet Pack etcetera. The mod system in Halo 4 seems to be a heavier version of Reach's little mods.

 

My own skill is tantamount to a semi-pro, and I personally have felt all the way from Halo 2 that for every new release in the series I have had less "edge" over my average skilled opponents. Will Halo 4 Specs not demand even less skill to be an effective killer? What are your thoughts on this?

 

(Halo Reach is a complete disaster, where in lack of a ranking system all together, I seldom experience a game where no one quits; also, when searching in Super Slayer by yourself you can get matched with 3 random players who probably rented the game the day before, and matched against a full team of semi-professional gamers.)

I completely agree with you. They need to bring back the 1-50 rank system but that will never happen.

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Better players do better then bad players. Obvious right?

 

If you really need a little number or symbol to make yourself feel better about your "skillz" well then...not our problem and certainly something you need to get over. Your skills at the game should be all you need. Everyone dies in the games, even the best players.

 

I'd like to see half the people who talk about "Skill" play a few rounds of CS 1.6 and see where the real gods of the gaming world reside. They don't need symbols or ranks to demonstrate their skill at a game, they prove it nearly every single time they get into a game.

 

Your numbers mean nothing to me, and to a lot people. What impresses most people is your actual skill at the game, not some dumb number next to your name that makes most people go "lol try hard" and face it.

 

Me being rank 100 in Battlefield has nothing to do with my skill, but the fact is when I go 56-0. I could be a Level 23. Rank doesn't matter, the player does.

[Jaculah]

Just because you see more complaints than appraisals doesn't mean the bulk agrees with you. Why should I make a thread about how much I like a game? I have reason to say I hate it, but a thread on what I like isn't going anywhere. The cold Hard fact is, the assumption that the bulk agree with you, has been used and debunked many times. Other than that, I wholeheartedly agree that Halo 4 is highly anticipated and a mystery to all.

 

I am not basing my assumption on threads posted on the internet. I am basing it on the grave overrepresentation of quitters.

[Slenderman]

They wanted to bring change to Halo, and Halo 4 will be it. Promethean vision WILL provide an edge over some players but there are ways to counter it with specializations. It is going completely competitive in my opinion. It is faster paced, no more 50 kill system, instant respawn, more AA, There are so many changes making it competitive but there WILL be regular vanilla playlists like Halo 1-3. Either way, it's your game, your'e gonna buy it, your'e gonna play it. HAVE FUN!

[Jaculah]

Better players do better then bad players. Obvious right?

 

If you really need a little number or symbol to make yourself feel better about your "skillz" well then...not our problem and certainly something you need to get over. Your skills at the game should be all you need. Everyone dies in the games, even the best players.

 

I'd like to see half the people who talk about "Skill" play a few rounds of CS 1.6 and see where the real gods of the gaming world reside. They don't need symbols or ranks to demonstrate their skill at a game, they prove it nearly every single time they get into a game.

 

Your numbers mean nothing to me, and to a lot people. What impresses most people is your actual skill at the game, not some dumb number next to your name that makes most people go "lol try hard" and face it.

 

Me being rank 100 in Battlefield has nothing to do with my skill, but the fact is when I go 56-0. I could be a Level 23. Rank doesn't matter, the player does.

 

False assumption. I do not need a symbol to represent my skill to make me feel better. What I want is for a system where players with similar skill level is matched together and not a completely random algorithm. Why not use the Halo 3 system in that way where there were a social playlist for those who did not care and just wanted to have a good time, and a competitive playlist for those who wanted worthy opponents. It is not me, it is basically the bulk of humanity who wants to compete, whether it be soccer, hockey, olympic games, mlg, etc. It has always been that way, and it will always be that way.

 

And "if" I wanted a rank "symbol" to represent my skill level for everybody to see, that is not precisely uncommon either. Ever heard of a gold medal in the olympic games, or the oscar, or nobel prize. That is the same concept.

 

I am a philosophical being and I recognize that what you say is absolutely true, but when I play video games I am looking for plain and simple carnal fun. To be that "deep" in something so "shallow" as gaming is, to me, pointless. I like your comment though.

[WonderWombat]

Hold on. I thought they were bringing back a system to match people with players ofthe similar skill. The "1-50" just isn't visable to other players.

 

Or was this just some rumor I heard?

[A Fhaol Bhig]

 

I am a philosophical being and I recognize that what you say is absolutely true, but when I play video games I am looking for plain and simple carnal fun. To be that "deep" in something so "shallow" as gaming is, to me, pointless. I like your comment though.

Make that clearer next time. While we may agree on many points, we will have to disagree with the rest. I am glad to see you are an open minded individual. Your other posts were not quite so demonstrative of your intelligence. I am glad to see I was wrong.

[Jaculah]

Yes, there is a 1-50 from what I heard. I'm just questioning the additional 10 levels (well, actually only the last level) which will enhance players abilities beyond your personal skill. Maybe that will be a blessing to the world of Halo, but I dont know.

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Hold on. I thought they were bringing back a system to match people with players ofthe similar skill. The "1-50" just isn't visable to other players.

 

Or was this just some rumor I heard?

They say that with pretty much every single game that is even slightly competitive.

[Twinreaper]

Here is your problem with saying anything related to a skill system. Realize that no matter what skill system they employ, or how it works....you will never be paired with someone who's skill level or skill set is exactly a perfect match for yours. Just because 2 Halo 3 level 50's get paired against eachother, does not mean that eachother's playstyle or particular individual skill set will be a good match. For what it is worth, most of the "true skill" or rank talk from around the internet, implies that everyone is crying for a way to play mirror images of themselves in-game.

 

It doesn't matter what system they use, not everyone plays enough to be the same level, and not everyone will have a good skill set to match yours. Liek I said, if you want that, then you need to be able to play yourself in-game.

 

Please don't try to compair playing halo to the Olympics or any other competition that actually requires you to go outside or physically compete. Using your thumbs and eyes while sitting in front of a tv is not a sport nor is it physically exhausting or require you to train physically for years. Games have constraints and set environments, and you are limited to the games actual code. Real life is vastly different and has proven time and time again, that anything can happen.

[The Director]

I am going to point out some of the issues that were with the Halo 3 1-50 ranking system really quick. This is mainly for your own information, rather than trying to debunk your opinion.

 

1. Level 1's could be paired with up to lv 18's. Theoretically, they could be paired with lv 50's if there weren't enough people online.

2. It is physically possible to get to lv50 in less than two hours with a little help from a friend (getting to that).

3. It is possible to purposefully drop your rank by quitting matches and throwing games, so that you can be a lv 50 in skill paired against a lv 20. This is called "Deranking".

4. It is notoriously easy to create booster accounts (accounts that gain other accounts skill levels really quickly).

5. It was estimated by the bnet community during the time of Halo 3 that over 1/3 of the population of lv 30 and above were not really at that level, but had boosted to get there.

 

Overall, the Halo 3 ranking system was one of the most broken of all time. It was easy to manipulate, difficult to catch players doing it, and did not accomplish it's goal of putting similarly skilled players against each other.

 

Now let's take a look at the Halo Reach ranking system and it's problems.

 

1. You do not have to play multiplayer to rank up. You can rank up from playing campaign, and single player firefight (score attack). This allows you to rank up without experiencing even one second of multiplayer.

2. Credits are easy to farm, which makes ranking up faster easier.

3. The credit cap limits the amount of gameplay you can play per day while still ranking up.

4. The truskill system that Halo Reach claims to employ is quite obviously broken. (I have been in a game where all three of my teammates were recruits [not partied up either] against 2 Inheritors, a Nova, and a Forerunner [also not partied up]. At the time I was a Mythic.)

5. You do not have to win games, or even do well to rank up in Halo Reach.

 

As you can see, though Reach's ranking system has it's faults, they are not game-breaking faults. Any game-breakers are in actual game play. While I don't like Reach's ranking system (I prefer H2's myself), it is less broken than H3's (not as easy to manipulate). This means that they improved upon their ranking system (albeit barely) from H3 to HR, which means that they (hopefully) will improve upon it yet again.

 

**note: The reason custom challenges isn't included in the above list is because there is only one way to manipulate the challenges, and even then it requires some work. The credit cap in place makes this a moot point, as well.

[Mr Biggles]

I completely agree with you. They need to bring back the 1-50 rank system but that will never happen.

 

With all of its Flaws.....

[Jaculah]

Here is your problem with saying anything related to a skill system. Realize that no matter what skill system they employ, or how it works....you will never be paired with someone who's skill level or skill set is exactly a perfect match for yours.

 

Whence did you derive basis for assuming that my request is to be able to be paired with exact copies of myself and my skill? That would obviously not be possible, and moreover, it would be undesirable. Your "straw man" argument will not work on me, mister.

 

The request is to be paired with other players that demonstrate similar level of skill, like divisions in soccer or whatever competitive sport you can think of. You do not see FIFA seriously thinking of matching Manchester United against my home towns' casual soccer team, do you? And since countless fans of Halo do want to compete, why not have that option but still keep the option for social and casual gaming. Those options were made avaliable in Halo 3 in the form of ranked and social playlists. (To prevent another "straw man" argument I will make it clear that this does not mean I fully support the TrueSkill algorithm)

 

Please don't try to compair playing halo to the Olympics or any other competition that actually requires you to go outside or physically compete. Using your thumbs and eyes while sitting in front of a tv is not a sport nor is it physically exhausting or require you to train physically for years. Games have constraints and set environments, and you are limited to the games actual code. Real life is vastly different and has proven time and time again, that anything can happen.

 

Why would I not compair professional gaming with the Olympics? What is the difference between competing outside and inside? Why could it not be a potential sport to use your hands and eyes in front of a TV? Why does it have to be physically exhausting to compete in a sport? Games have constraints and set environments, but is not an Olympic arena a set environment, and is not the laws of nature (like gravity) also constraints?

 

These are some questions for you to ponder. All your suggested criteria for competition are false. Straight from Wikipedia: (1) "Competition... arises whenever at least two parties strive for a goal which cannot be shared or which is desired individually but not in sharing and cooperation.", and (2) "Sport is generally recognised as activities which are based in physical athleticism or physical dexterity, with the largest major competitions such as the Olypic Games admitting only sports meeting this definition... However, a number of competitive, but non-physical, activities claim recognition as mind sports. The International Olympic Committee recognises both chess and bridge as bona fide sports.".

 

MLG, which is no different in this regard, has recognized and made avaliable the games Halo 3 and Halo: Reach (and other games aswell) as competitive sports.

[Twinreaper]

My comment about playing mirror images is.exactly on point. As I.had stated no.rank or skill.system will pair you even.75% of the time pair you with an opponent or opponents of equal skill to a small.margine of error. The mirror image is a statement based on my own findings and not.fact, I never implied it was.

[Ryu♥Hayabusa]

Listen, we all need to stop this. Have we gone insane? I respect opinions and debates, but this is ridiculous.

 

Listen, the ranking system does not determine matchings, and if you need a number to determine your rank, try BPR in Waypoint until Halo 4 comes out. They should have had BPR in the first place. Your opinion is yours, and I respect that. Now, lets discuss this.

 

No one said Halo 4's system will be bad. They just hope it actually helps show skill. What's the harm in that?

 

Now, we need to realize something, a mix of the two ranking systems is actually very good. 1: You earn something while you play to rank up. 2: You can likely rank down. Meaning some skill has to be required to get top rank.

 

Either way, Professional Gaming is considered a sport just as Nascar or Football is. But it isn't a physical sport. Sports aren't all physical, they are just competitive games. Every one of them. Even war could be considered a sport were it not so brutal. Which is why we have Airsoft.

 

This discussion needs to calm down before mods get involved. I will not hesitate to begin reporting, myself.

[Jaculah]

My comment about playing mirror images is.exactly on point. As I.had stated no.rank or skill.system will pair you even.75% of the time pair you with an opponent or opponents of equal skill to a small.margine of error. The mirror image is a statement based on my own findings and not.fact, I never implied it was.

 

You are of course right, but I don't think there is any one who would want a zero margin of error. We want an algorithm which matches players that display similar skill level; that way you either rank up or down, depending on what you deserve. In a system like Reach's, without a rank-based match making algorithm altogether, the absolute highest skilled players could theoretically be matched against the absolute lowest skilled players. Is that a system you would like for Halo 4?

 

Listen, we all need to stop this. Have we gone insane? I respect opinions and debates, but this is ridiculous.

 

This discussion needs to calm down before mods get involved. I will not hesitate to begin reporting, myself.

 

I think we conduct our dialogue in peace. Argumentation does not equal fighting; and I feel no anger towards any one.

[Twinreaper]

Ryu, neither of us is getting heated nor causing the other harm. We are simply 2 members calmly talking and debating an issue. It is perfectly fine, and as stated by Jac, this is a peacefull debate.

 

Jac, your thinking is spot on, but reach did have an algorithm to determine the pairings. The matchmaking system looks at your overall commendations, ones that pertain to the particular match you are heading into. Lets say it is slayer.

 

Next the system compares your commendations like "headshots", "grenade kills", and so on. It then searches the available pool of on-line players who have the closest number of commendations that you have. Yes sometimes it might be a General facing an Inheritor, but the commendations each have for a particular match in relevance, might be the same.

 

Now of coarse yes, there will always be a time when noone who matches your skills is available and you get stuck with lesser opponents, but that is just an annoying thing we can't get rid of.

 

Reach had a great algorithm behind it, but sadly it did not have enough statistical data being thrown in to help it be a great factor in MM. I strongly believe if they used 2x the statistic data in matches and used the Reach algorithm with a rank class like H2, that it could in theory prove to be the best rank system yet. Of coarse we would have the social and ranked separation though...you know, to keep things in check and both sides happy.

[Ryu♥Hayabusa]

Ryu, neither of us is getting heated nor causing the other harm. We are simply 2 members calmly talking and debating an issue. It is perfectly fine, and as stated by Jac, this is a peacefull debate.

Which is why the whole first paragraph of your post is gone now, eh? The part directly insulting him? It is gone now, but it was there. My post was relevant until it was removed.

 

I think we conduct our dialogue in peace. Argumentation does not equal fighting; and I feel no anger towards any one.

No, you do not understand. My post likely caused the removal of part of a post. NOW it is peaceful, but if you saw it, you'd understand.