Chewin3 Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Disclaimer: Not sure whether a similar topic has already been posted, or if this is the right place to post, so sorry for that. During my leisure times, if I'm not playing games or doing something else, I tend to read a lot of history. History is a subject that I find to be very intriguing, especially when it depicts famous and notable historical figures who accomplished different deeds, either in warfare or in another area. So, as the topic titles states, who / which are your favorite historical figure(s)? Personally, my favorites range from a few dozen, so I will simply name a few out off my head: Muhammad - Religious and spiritual beliefs aside, on a purely practical, political and social / cultural level, there is not one man who was as successful and impactful as him. He was an excellent politician, great military leader and a brilliant statesman and lawmaker who in a very short amount of time, created a state from scratch, an army from zero and a culture inspired and well-guided enough to very quickly establish itself as a great civilization. From a purely objective point of view, very few can be deemed his equal in terms of impact and success. Augustus - Octavian was a shrewd, brilliant and astute politician. He was of short stature, well proportioned and he possessed that commodity so rare in rulers - grace. Through cold, hard political calculation he was able to achieve ultimate power in Rome. At the time of Caesar’s assassination, Octavian held no official position. Only after he marched on Rome and forced the senate to name him consul, was he established as a power to be reckoned with. He managed to expand the Empire not only through land, but also in a working honest government and a sound currency system and so much more. Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de La Fayette - While perhaps not the most renowned military leader nor diplomat during the American Revolutionary War, La Fayette's courage and tenacity on the battlefield and his successful pleas for material aid for the Americans through correspondence and on furloughs to France, belied the monumental effect of his passion, instinctive skill, and connections. The fact that he left home and hearth to risk his life in a country not his own (and at his own expense) for the cause of liberty captured the imagination and admiration of Americans. Received as a hero in his homeland upon his return, and well-known for his liberal ideas throughout the western world, Lafayette played an important role in the political changes taking place in France. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killerdude1635 Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Uhm, I will get dirty looks for this, but: Hitler - Yes, what he did was terrible and unforgivable, but the fact he could convince an entire nation to do it was absolutely astounding. He had amazing leadership skills and pretty much turned Germany around and essentially invented the greatest trash cleanup system to date, but he also used those skills to do some terrible stuff. If he didn't kill off those millions of people he would be aces in my books. Leonardo davinci - one of the greatest men in history to ever live, invented most of what we use today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewin3 Posted September 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Uhm, I will get dirty looks for this, but: Hitler - Yes, what he did was terrible and unforgivable, but the fact he could convince an entire nation to do it was absolutely astounding. He had amazing leadership skills and pretty much turned Germany around and essentially invented the greatest trash cleanup system to date, but he also used those skills to do some terrible stuff. If he didn't kill off those millions of people he would be aces in my books. There is nothing wrong with 'admiring' Hitler for his accomplishments. History--and politics in this case--are fields of study. A historian or political analyst should keep their moral opinions to themselves and strive to be as objective as possible, with the knowledge that of course being fully objective is impossible. While I agree that him accomplishing to convince an entire nation to 'his side', it was mostly due to the nations desperate situation, and since he managed to achieve political power, many had no choice but to 'submit'. Overall, while some of his policies might be classified as great / successful, like the Anschluss or Night of Long Knives. Though ultimately, his career was more destructive than constructive, and he as a leader was mostly irrational, blind and in some cases, stupid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robius5991 Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Wow, that's a loaded question to anyone who is a fan of history. I for one also have quite a few favourites, so I'll also narrow it down to who believe were the best. Leonardo da'Vinci: Truly the perfect exemple of a Renaissance man, his intellect towered over that of most other competitors. He was truly ahead of his time, with a mind that would easily challenge most of our modern-day "geniuses". The fact that he initiated the founding work of so many diverses sciences is astounding. When you look at the period, where science was still very frowned upon, thanks to the Church's influence, the fact that an individual such as he (who was not very well payed for his art mind-you / until later in life) could accomplish so much within a single life-time is just mind-blowing. Even today, scientists and artists are confounded by the intricacy of his masterpieces, as he was able to fuse mathematics with art, leaving coded messages within his works. Anyways, these are just a few reasons to admire Leonardo. Hassan i-Sabbah: Here we have a man on the oposite side of the spectrum. Although he is the cause of many deaths, his indoctrination techniques created the very first, and some of the most effective Assassins in history. Using manipulation of the mind, isolation and unmatched intellect, he was able to mold many young men into religiously-fanatic killing machines. He created the first sleeper-agents, the first silent killers. It he who inspired the character "Al Mualim" in Assassin's Creed. With such weapons at his disposal, he quickly eliminate any enemy who stood in his way, even threatening the lives of high-level figures, such as the Sultan of Syria and Salah ad-Din. I wish I have more time to write, but it seems I need to go now. Perhaps I'll check this thread later today and add more, should I have the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swaggerbetis44 Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 i will simply say jimmie carter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewin3 Posted September 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Hassan i-Sabbah: *snip* Hassan is indeed someone that is worthy of praise. No only was he able to influence people to completely dedicate themselves to his cause, he was also a charismatic leader, a brilliant mathematician, a devoted scholar and a diabolical mastermind. Even Saladin feared the organization Hassan founded over its dominance and political influence. I wish I have more time to write, but it seems I need to go now. Perhaps I'll check this thread later today and add more, should I have the time. Please do! It's interesting reading people's impression over different figures. And you might learn something new over people you already know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenslayer Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Muhammad - Religious and spiritual beliefs aside, on a purely practical, political and social / cultural level, there is not one man who was as successful and impactful as him. He was an excellent politician, great military leader and a brilliant statesman and lawmaker who in a very short amount of time, created a state from scratch, an army from zero and a culture inspired and well-guided enough to very quickly establish itself as a great civilization. From a purely objective point of view, very few can be deemed his equal in terms of impact and success. I have to admit, I never knew about this of Muhammed. I always thought he was simply the 'founder' of Islam. I wasn't aware that he accomplished so much in his lifetime! Thanks for sharing this with me, Chewin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robius5991 Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Ok, I'm finally back on. So, when I left off, I spoke about two of my favourite ancient historical figures that I admired. A third that I would have to mention is a little more modern than the others, but I would say that his actions will be remembered in history forever. Al Capone: Obviously portrayed as an evil character and mainly remembered for the notorious Saint-Valentine's day Massacre which he was blamed for, Capone actually did many other things for which he impresses me. First of all, keep in mind, as a child, he grew up in a home of two poor Italian immigrants with a large family. To think that this young man grew from poverty to being one of the richest and most powerful men in the United States is amazing. During my reseach, I learned that Capone actually did a lot of good for the world once he was in power. For exemple, did you know that Capone opened some of the first soup kitchens in U.S. at Chicago, during the Great Depression? He also fought for the labeling of experation dates on milk for the city's young and donated a lot of money to charities and local businesses. These were the nice things he did, but then, if you look at his other side, we see a manipulative, ingenious and masterful criminal. His hatred of the Irish carried throughout his live, during his battles with the North Side Gang, and his talents in manipulation allowed him to keep most police forces in his pocket as he ran a large multitudes of rackets, making (what certain researchers believe) was over a few million dollars a day in equivalence to today's currency. So, I'm glad I can share my interests here in this forum. Sadly, yet again I must depart. I'll be sure to keep checking this thread. Thanks for starting it, it's nice to see other individuals as interested in history as myself! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fiery Knight Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 While I do admit I admire many historical figures, e.g. Ceasar and Napoleon, my main concern with admiration of different figures is that in many cases the great deeds they're admired for were really atrocities... So it makes it hard for me to really sum them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewin3 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 Interesting read, Rob! I wasn't aware of Capone's involvement in Chicagos welfare to that extent. It's a good thing to know. While I do admit I admire many historical figures, e.g. Ceasar and Napoleon, my main concern with admiration of different figures is that in many cases the great deeds they're admired for were really atrocities... So it makes it hard for me to really sum them up. You say that as if greatness and atrocity are necessarily mutually exclusive. Greatness the way I see it, is not a moral judgement, but is rather based on success and impact on the world in their respective field. There is a different between 'great' and 'good'. You may find an act morally reprehensible, but whether it was successful or not with regards to the intended goal can be determined more or less objectively, in addition to the long term effects and whether they were positive or negative (in case of leaders, naturally with regards to their own polity first and foremost). For instance, Augustus committed atrocities particularly in his rise to power. But there is no historian worth his salt who would not consider Augustus great for his achievement and that the Empire he created was better in almost all fronts especially for the common people than the dysfunctional Republic that preceded him. My main concern is not this moralistic judgmental stance, these kinds of sentiments have no place in history (or in politics for that matter), but rather some figures being overrated at the expense of others in terms of accomplishments. For instance, there is no doubt in my mind that Philip of Macedon deserved the title of The Great more than his son, for being an excellent military leader, general and tactician who revolutionized warfare, strategy and tactics in Greece, as well as an excellent politician and statesman who through force and diplomacy united almost all of Greece where Athens, Thebes and Sparta had failed. Without him, there would not have been an Alexander. And while Alexander was probably a better tactician than his father, the fact is that his military achievements were still conceived on the shoulders of a giant, not to mention that Alexander was not a match to his father politically. But one was more bombastic,'heroic' (even though Philip was in fact very brave and suffered 4 major injuries in battle) and at first glance more impressive, whereas the other was more subtle and with a degree of success and impact that go beyond the first glance. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Sparkle Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 Don't have one. There are several that I think are admirable, but not sure which is more admirable than the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fiery Knight Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 Hmm, there is alot of truth in that, Chew. I have never viewed it that way. It's true that you should view historical figures as objective as possible, though some persons accomplishemnts do foreshadow their evil deeds imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liana Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Yus! I love threads like these! I'm a history graduate, and I simply love to discuss history with other people with knowledge on the subject! Ok, I have two favorites I can share. I'll keep them relatively short, so no one need to get bored while reading them => Alfred the Great - The only English king to be called "the Great", the one who defeated and made peace with the Danes. The father, pretty much, of what is now English law, the English army, and English education. He was by all accounts a wise and learned man, the sort of man you could sit down with and have a good long conversation. Johannes Kepler - Galileo and Copernicus may have been first, but Kepler was more influential. Much of modern philosophy of science, as well as astrophysics, theoretical physics, and the calculus are founded on Kepler's work. With the recent transit of Venus, it's timely to honor Kepler, as Horrocks's correct prediction of the 1639 transit established the accuracy of Kepler's laws. Peisistratos - Tyrant of ancient Athens - famous for one of the weirdest and most cynical stunts in political history; he found a tall Greek woman and dressed her up as Athena the goddess, and then rode into the city in a golden chariot; the stunt lured superstitious Athenians to his side because they thought he had the goddess's support. Greatness the way I see it, is not a moral judgement, but is rather based on success and impact on the world in their respective field. There is a different between 'great' and 'good'. (...) This is spot on! An analysis of a historical process or event should be done neutral and objectively. And the farer this event is in the past, the easier it is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robius5991 Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Hey, it's cool to see more people posting on this thread, really interesting stuff from everyone. I just got back on here to add another historical figure that I admire and that I forgot to mention. Hannibal, son of Hamilcar Barca: He's been known for being the carthaginian commander who led his forces into Rome, but utilimately failed his conquest. I find it unfair how he is judged by his failure, rather than his outstanding military planning. Although some certain ideas were not the best, like walking his armies through the mountains (thus causing himself many casualties) but he held strong through the hard times and kept pushing forwards. The greatest exemple of this would be his performance at the "Battle of Cannae". During this conflict, Hannibal had aproximately 40 000 soldiers while the combined Roman forces had around 90 000 troops. By placing his men in a "U" shape, Hannibal tricked the Romans into attacking his weak center line, thus allowing them to push themselves further and further. Then, the soldiers that made the other two sides of the "U", including his cavalry, closed around and used a "double-envelopment" startegy to completely surround the Romans. During a battle that lasted between 7-8 hours between 70 000 - 80 000 Roman soldiers were killed... Hannibal only lost around 15 000 soldiers. It was from this incredibly brutal battle that the term "annihilation" came to exist, because Hannibal annihilated the Roman armies in one of the most brutally effective battles in military history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Snazz Posted September 29, 2012 Report Share Posted September 29, 2012 Benjamin Franklin-too many reasons to really list Caesar-One of the most powerful and influential leaders in history, only to become corrupt within himself. A tragic story and the man is just remarkable military wise. He is by far one of the most powerful emperors of all time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartan T-127 Posted September 29, 2012 Report Share Posted September 29, 2012 Marilyn Monroe. An amazing woman who I admire greatly. She was an incredible actress and someone who could smile when they're sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewin3 Posted September 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Yus! I love threads like these! I'm a history graduate, and I simply love to discuss history with other people with knowledge on the subject! Ok, I have two favorites I can share. I'll keep them relatively short, so no one need to get bored while reading them => Glad to hear that! And that's an interesting list of figures. And agreed on your view of Alfred the Great. Him improving both the kingdom's legal system and military structure is fascinating to read about! I would also like to add to other figures that I've found to be very interesting to read about: Abd al-Malik Ibn Marwan - If Mu'awiya is to take credit for bringing unity to the early Muslims, Abd al-Malik would have to take credit for truly establishing an Imperial state with a system that would outlast his dynasty and be adopted by following Islamic polities centuries after him. An excellent politician and statesman as well as a visionary. Though most claim that the "Islamic Golden Age" started with the Abbasid dynasty, I would claim that the zenith started with his rule for all the political reforms he enacted and the administrative stability he established that allowed for a boom of high culture. Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn Yūsuf ibn Ayyūb (Saladin) - He had amazing diplomatic skills, was a brilliant person as far as knowledge, and great military leader. He united and lead the Muslim world, and managed to recapture Jerusalem for the Muslims after defeating the King of Jerusalem at the Battle of Hattin. When his soldiers entered the city of Jerusalem, they were not allowed to kill civilians, rob people or damage the city. The more successful Saladin was, the more he was seen by the Muslims as being their natural leader. Rather than becoming a hated figure in Europe and by his enemies, he became a celebrated example of the principles of chivalry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liana Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Hmm, I must admit, I have never heard of these two you listed. Come to think of it, you seem to have named quite a selection of different Muslim figures in your posts, Chewin. Are you interested in middle eastern history or? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewin3 Posted October 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 I am indeed interested in Middle Eastern history! The thing is, most history books in school / universities tends to focus on European and American history. I once had a discussion about history with a friend from Syria, who named several remarkable historical events / periods / figures who I had never even heard of. So I got interested, hit the library, and picked up several books concerning the Middle East. And I must say, there are several things I've read about that are really foreshadowed, and should get some light upon them. One reason why I tend to make threads like these on different forums. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liana Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Hah, I feel little like you're my friend from Syria! No but seriously, I can see your point of view, and learning more of "unknown" history through experiences like yours is a great idea! Maybe I should do something similar as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liana Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Okay, this thread hasn't seen any figures lately, so I'm gonna portray two more I've been reading more about recently. Abraham Lincoln - This man saw past his own mistakes and beliefs to free the slaves. He could have taken the easy road and kept agreeing that slavery was needed and was a good thing. Instead he changed his views and philosophy on the subject and efought for what was right and succeeded. Uesugi Kenshin - A Japanese warlord in the 16th century. He is famed for his honor. His largest most powerful rival, Takeda Shingen, who he had fought many times had his province cut off from salt from another warlord. In those days salt was really important. Kenshin, upon learning this ordered the merchants in his province to sell salt to his bitter rival for at a reasonable price. Kenshin said something to the effect of "I make war with swords, not salt." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenslayer Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 ^And to add to that, Abraham took a shot at his stomach, and still finished his speech! What a badass! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewin3 Posted October 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 No, you'd be confusing with Theodore Roosevelt, who was shot during his election campaign speech in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 'Twas only a flesh wound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Dr Dolittle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killerdude1635 Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 No, you'd be confusing with Theodore Roosevelt, who was shot during his election campaign speech in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 'Twas only a flesh wound. "Come back here! I'll bite your legs off!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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