Halo 4 banning sexist players

[Echo]

 

If someone can't trust their friends to play a game without insulting people, they shouldn't let them onto their account. Get them to bring their own profile on a memory unit, or recover it via XBL. And if said friends are the kind of people who go to that person's house, play their games while they're asleep, and then use their account to throw bigotry at others knowing that it will result in a ban, that person should probably think about getting some new friends because the ones they have clearly aren't worth having.

 

There's nothing rude about playing a friends xbox while they sleep. Typically I'll have friends over and let them crash the night at my place (especially if they had a few drinks). You're looking past the big picture here. It could be something as easy as saying one word out of anger or context. As stated in my previous post (the parts you didnt decide to quote me on, interestingly enough) there are things people will say that just come off as offensive, whether they mean it or not.

 

Another example, I have a black friend who says the N word sometimes, just in casual conversation like a lot of other black people do. Even if he said it under his breath over the mic, and it being the ONLY thing he said, would still perma ban me.

 

Even with girls, someone could say an offense term out of anger under their breath, not mean anything by it PERSONALLY, nor directed at anyone specific, and still, perma ban for me.

 

Hooray.

 

 

If you didn't say anything, you won't get in trouble. They'll check the records to find out who said what. If you're worried, then tell the person saying sexist things that you think they're an idiot and you don't agree with them: that way you'll not only have a record of your voice in your history which sounds different from what's said in-game, but it'll be a record which overtly disagrees with what's being said. If you don't have a mic, you obviously can't be guilty, so don't worry about that either.

 

 

Nope

 

You say that as if it were actually that easy, when in reality it's not. As stated before in this thread, someone was banned for being accused of abusing the credit system. They wouldn't contact with him, they wouldn't tell him why they did it, and they didn't help him in the end. With feedback like that, paired with the fact that trying to differentiate two peoples voices over ONE word incidents (and over xbox live, which most people have crappy static-y headsets that make people sound pretty similar), is simply not accurate. And in fact, is one of the most unrealistic ways to find out what really went on, especially when you realize that they wouldn't even go to such lengths to begin with just to help someone from a ban after hearing about our friend in this thread.

 

 

 

 

That's not what happens at all. Where I work, if I were to insult someone just because of their gender or skin colour, I'd be looking for a new job by the end of the day. Plus, everyone HAS just been warned about it, so there's no excuse for not knowing. Everyone has to say they'd read and agree to the Terms and Conditions of using XBL when they sign up, including playing by the rules of the Code of Conduct.

 

 

Right, but where you work you also talk to your boss face to face, and are responsible for everything you do, because, you know, it's a job. Controlling yourself in a public (real) place that you go to everyday and meet with the same employees everyday is a completely different scenario than being at home, on the couch, where other people can get a hold of your things, and where thousands of more potential outcomes could happen that makes an offensive word go out to the public. It's also an entirely different mentality that gets put on in the work place.

 

 

 

Yep. And all that proves is that the system we have in place to stop people from being racist or sexist is working.

 

 

 

That's like saying our old judicial system worked because everyone accused of a crime was being punished, at the cost of some innocent people. You're looking at the immediate outcomes without thinking critically at all. Keeping the system the way it is will, yes, ban racist/sexist people where they stand, but at the same time bans several innocent people who paid $64.64 (probably much more) for a game. While on the more logical side of dealing with this, giving a warning would do the same thing, but more. It would give innocent people another chance at playing the game, it would warn those who are purposely racist/sexist and ultimately give them a choice to either keep being racist/sexist or start playing the game without being mean (keeping a player in the matchmaking pool as well as eliminating anymore outbursts) or continue to be racist/sexist and then get banned, banning a sexist player while also keeping the innocent free and converting the wicked.

 

If they choose to not be mean anymore, then you literally have the same outcome in that situation. a racist comment was said "once." And for those who choose to say it a "second" time, well... then i suppose they would deserve a ban hammer.

 

 

I mean, how could they not be aware of it? They agreed in a legally binding document that they understood and agreed to them. There's no excuse for not knowing the rules and someone saying they didn't bother reading them when they're in trouble just makes them a particularly stupid bigot.

 

 

Yet again you're ignoring the big picture and only taking into consideration the controllable outcomes. Last I checked, life happens. Whether we want it to or not. If a tree limb falls on my car and scratches it, I'd prefer the insurance.

 

 

But let me be clear about this

 

I am in no way saying that offending someone verbally is "ok" for someone to do. In fact, I go out of my way to call out those who do so in public. But to simply ban someone for life over something with so many potential outcomes is idiotic. If there weren't as many foreseeable outcomes, then yes, perma ban would be fine. But it's just simply not the right way to go.

 

Not sure how I feel about this...I understand the principal behind the matter, but I curse sometimes when I am very frustrated, not an individual usually but in general, what if a gamer on my team happens to be a girl and not using a mic, thus I had no clue and they take offense and report me and I am banned...that hardly seems fair.

 

Exactly my friend.

 

Things like this are too sporadic to simply turn a perma ban on.

 

Literally, the ONLY thing making this not suitable for a permanent ban is the simple fact that there are way too many side factors to consider. I understand what you're saying RedStar, I really do, but it's just not a good enough choice to deal with a situation as complex as this.

 

Especially in a time period where people watch stand up comedians (who have nothing better to joke about than racism). Someone repeats the joke to their friend sitting next to them would be banned for "life" over it.

 

Hell, I'd even accept a week ban just to put them in time out, but an initial perma ban is just not realistic.

[Tallgeese]

There's nothing rude about playing a friends xbox while they sleep. Typically I'll have friends over and let them crash the night at my place (especially if they had a few drinks). You're looking past the big picture here. It could be something as easy as saying one word out of anger or context. As stated in my previous post (the parts you didnt decide to quote me on, interestingly enough) there are things people will say that just come off as offensive, whether they mean it or not.

 

Another example, I have a black friend who says the N word sometimes, just in casual conversation like a lot of other black people do. Even if he said it under his breath over the mic, and it being the ONLY thing he said, would still perma ban me.

 

Even with girls, someone could say an offense term out of anger under their breath, not mean anything by it PERSONALLY, nor directed at anyone specific, and still, perma ban for me.

 

Hooray.

 

 

 

Nope

 

You say that as if it were actually that easy, when in reality it's not. As stated before in this thread, someone was banned for being accused of abusing the credit system. They wouldn't contact with him, they wouldn't tell him why they did it, and they didn't help him in the end. With feedback like that, paired with the fact that trying to differentiate two peoples voices over ONE word incidents (and over xbox live, which most people have crappy static-y headsets that make people sound pretty similar), is simply not accurate. And in fact, is one of the most unrealistic ways to find out what really went on, especially when you realize that they wouldn't even go to such lengths to begin with just to help someone from a ban after hearing about our friend in this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

Right, but where you work you also talk to your boss face to face, and are responsible for everything you do, because, you know, it's a job. Controlling yourself in a public (real) place that you go to everyday and meet with the same employees everyday is a completely different scenario than being at home, on the couch, where other people can get a hold of your things, and where thousands of more potential outcomes could happen that makes an offensive word go out to the public. It's also an entirely different mentality that gets put on in the work place.

 

 

 

 

That's like saying our old judicial system worked because everyone accused of a crime was being punished, at the cost of some innocent people. You're looking at the immediate outcomes without thinking critically at all. Keeping the system the way it is will, yes, ban racist/sexist people where they stand, but at the same time bans several innocent people who paid $64.64 (probably much more) for a game. While on the more logical side of dealing with this, giving a warning would do the same thing, but more. It would give innocent people another chance at playing the game, it would warn those who are purposely racist/sexist and ultimately give them a choice to either keep being racist/sexist or start playing the game without being mean (keeping a player in the matchmaking pool as well as eliminating anymore outbursts) or continue to be racist/sexist and then get banned, banning a sexist player while also keeping the innocent free and converting the wicked.

 

If they choose to not be mean anymore, then you literally have the same outcome in that situation. a racist comment was said "once." And for those who choose to say it a "second" time, well... then i suppose they would deserve a ban hammer.

 

 

 

Yet again you're ignoring the big picture and only taking into consideration the controllable outcomes. Last I checked, life happens. Whether we want it to or not. If a tree limb falls on my car and scratches it, I'd prefer the insurance.

 

 

But let me be clear about this

 

I am in no way saying that offending someone verbally is "ok" for someone to do. In fact, I go out of my way to call out those who do so in public. But to simply ban someone for life over something with so many potential outcomes is idiotic. If there weren't as many foreseeable outcomes, then yes, perma ban would be fine. But it's just simply not the right way to go.

 

 

 

Exactly my friend.

 

Things like this are too sporadic to simply turn a perma ban on.

 

Literally, the ONLY thing making this not suitable for a permanent ban is the simple fact that there are way too many side factors to consider. I understand what you're saying RedStar, I really do, but it's just not a good enough choice to deal with a situation as complex as this.

 

Especially in a time period where people watch stand up comedians (who have nothing better to joke about than racism). Someone repeats the joke to their friend sitting next to them would be banned for "life" over it.

 

Hell, I'd even accept a week ban just to put them in time out, but an initial perma ban is just not realistic.

 

Yeah I think there are just too many holes in the system and too many people will be banned for mistaken accounts of sexism...like I said before I understand the principal behind the matter, but there are better ways to handle this than just perma ban

[Wolfspector]

 

 

Not sure how I feel about this...I understand the principal behind the matter, but I curse sometimes when I am very frustrated, not an individual usually but in general, what if a gamer on my team happens to be a girl and not using a mic, thus I had no clue and they take offense and report me and I am banned...that hardly seems fair.

That's where I'm iffy too. I might curse from time to time, and I don't always know I'm doing it. But I trust they'll be more specific. Like bans being placed for actually saying something about someone's sex, or blatantly flaming for it, or even derogatory racial names, ect. Not for actually cussing, since I know the majority of 360 players, let alone peeps of halo4 curse often. If they try to go PG on us, it might hurt 343 I would think.

[Tallgeese]

That's where I'm iffy too. I might curse from time to time, and I don't always know I'm doing it. But I trust they'll be more specific. Like bans being placed for actually saying something about someone's sex, or blatantly flaming for it, or even derogatory racial names, ect. Not for actually cussing, since I know the majority of 360 players, let alone peeps of halo4 curse often. If they try to go PG on us, it might hurt 343 I would think.

 

Yeah I am right there with you...I often dont realize it when I am getting really upset. I have a feeling it will be within a direct conversation with a person of the opposite sex and you have to actually say something sexist. If they start banning people for cursing and somone reports for sexism...that will turn badly for 343i

[Echo]

Not to mention this system in itself is dumb, putting homophobia, racism and discrimination towards the mentally ill at the bottom of the priority list.

 

If someone gets banned for saying an offensive term to women, then anyone who insults the mentally ill (aka, calling someone retarded, being one of the most frequent insults I know) should be perma banned as well.

 

Does that seem realistic? No. And if that were to be followed by a permanent ban I bet half of the Halo population would be out 60 bucks.

[Tallgeese]

Not to mention this system in itself is dumb, putting homophobia, racism and discrimination towards the mentally ill at the bottom of the priority list.

 

If someone gets banned for saying an offensive term to women, then anyone who insults the mentally ill (aka, calling someone retarded, being one of the most frequent insults I know) should be perma banned as well.

 

Does that seem realistic? No. And if that were to be followed by a permanent ban I bet half of the Halo population would be out 60 bucks.

 

Yeah I see this as being a recipe for disaster. Unless someone tells a female gamer to "get in the kitchen and make them a sandwhich isntead of being on a game", or something along those lines, than I dont see how 343i/M$ can really tell if someone was being intentional or just cursing in general

[Wolfspector]

 

 

Yeah I am right there with you...I often dont realize it when I am getting really upset. I have a feeling it will be within a direct conversation with a person of the opposite sex and you have to actually say something sexist. If they start banning people for cursing and somone reports for sexism...that will turn badly for 343i

Exactly. The halo 4 population would drop so fast. I cant remember the last time i played any halo game online and didnt hear f bombs and such constantly. So I hope they're clearly thinking this through

[yeahyeahgetsome]

people r to soft ur most likely never going to see that person ever in your life and if there so narrow minded and have to say stupid and hurtful things mute them screw it im not saying what there doing is right but if u get so upset that people call u names than u have more problems than another xbox live user

[Stealth Pilot]

I call my teamates Dingleberries....it is funny, and not profanity.

 

EDIT: Actually it is...I usually say ****ing Dingleberries...soooo

[Deadlygashaze]

Yo dawg, chicks don't play games. This post is irrelevant.

[Mr. Wolfy]

this is cool and all but does this really apply to trash talk just sexist stuff i dont care i wont talk to you anyway but thats alot of banning going on .

 

P.S manyy people are saying the guys are sexist there are girls out there that can deall just as much as they can get it true iv said hey to a girl and instantly get called "what you wan ****" i just like o.O o what did i do

nevah make the first aproach on a girl D: the way i play it is i joke around with my buddies in the lobby and normally the guys and girls add me~ i have like 20 chicks on my friends list cause they think im cool~ lil do they know... mwuahahahaha

[killerdude1635]

NOW they're gonna start with verbal harrasment bans?

Jesus somersaulting Christ, they are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too late.

[RedStarRocket91]

EDIT: Wow, this post was a LOT bigger than I thought. Spoiler tag added to try and keep thread pages at a reasonably length.

 

 

 

There's nothing rude about playing a friends xbox while they sleep. Typically I'll have friends over and let them crash the night at my place (especially if they had a few drinks). You're looking past the big picture here. It could be something as easy as saying one word out of anger or context. As stated in my previous post (the parts you didnt decide to quote me on, interestingly enough) there are things people will say that just come off as offensive, whether they mean it or not.

 

As far as I'm aware, I quoted every line of your post except the last, which I chose to omit as I'd already said what I needed to say by the time I got there.

 

Another example, I have a black friend who says the N word sometimes, just in casual conversation like a lot of other black people do. Even if he said it under his breath over the mic, and it being the ONLY thing he said, would still perma ban me.

 

So don't let him play on your account, or with a microphone if he does. People control what they say and if they can't, they probably shouldn't be playing with a microphone. Besides, there's no reason why you can't replace a word here and there if that's what you're supposed to do. And if you're using it as a term of endearment, then it's not sexism or racism. Insulting someone who's just killed you just because they're black, muslim, female, or whatever is something that's a choice, and if someone doesn't have the self-control to can their bigotry for the ten minutes it takes to play a game online, then perhaps the sstem doesn't have the self-control not to ban them.

 

Even with girls, someone could say an offense term out of anger under their breath, not mean anything by it PERSONALLY, nor directed at anyone specific, and still, perma ban for me.

 

Same thing applies, though if it's not aimed at anyone and it's genuinely done out of frustration, it probably won't get reported.

 

You say that as if it were actually that easy, when in reality it's not. As stated before in this thread, someone was banned for being accused of abusing the credit system. They wouldn't contact with him, they wouldn't tell him why they did it, and they didn't help him in the end. With feedback like that, paired with the fact that trying to differentiate two peoples voices over ONE word incidents (and over xbox live, which most people have crappy static-y headsets that make people sound pretty similar), is simply not accurate. And in fact, is one of the most unrealistic ways to find out what really went on, especially when you realize that they wouldn't even go to such lengths to begin with just to help someone from a ban after hearing about our friend in this thread.

 

You can't judge an entire system on the back of one bad anecdote - I once had a huge allergic reaction to some medicine my GP prescribed for me, but that doesn't mean I think all doctors are evil. More importantly, the audio logs are kept for individual players, not lobbies, so what shows up in your audio history is what you and you alone have said.

 

That said, I can sympathise with anyone who's banned and claims they were innocent - especially if they can't get hold of the 'evidence' used to ban them in the first place. Microsoft really need to make this stuff available to people, because it's not right that the decision to suspend a paid service is done behind closed doors with no accountability. Even if someone gets banned for something as obviously deserved as telling someone in their lobby to kill themselves just because they're Jewish, there should still be a public record of all the evidence, including any messages sent by the player or audio recorded from a microphone relevant to the ban.

 

Right, but where you work you also talk to your boss face to face, and are responsible for everything you do, because, you know, it's a job. Controlling yourself in a public (real) place that you go to everyday and meet with the same employees everyday is a completely different scenario than being at home, on the couch, where other people can get a hold of your things, and where thousands of more potential outcomes could happen that makes an offensive word go out to the public. It's also an entirely different mentality that gets put on in the work place.

 

I don't really think it is any different. Just because someone is at home, doesn't mean they aren't responsible for what they say. Their words can be heard just as clearly as if they were stood right next to the person they were insulting. There's a weird mentality where people think they can just say whatever they want online and not have to answer for it. Saying something offensive to somebody is just as hurtful whether it's delivered either face-to-face or over the internet, and I don't understand why someone who hates bigotry in the 'real world' is happy to have it go on over the internet.

 

That's like saying our old judicial system worked because everyone accused of a crime was being punished, at the cost of some innocent people. You're looking at the immediate outcomes without thinking critically at all. Keeping the system the way it is will, yes, ban racist/sexist people where they stand, but at the same time bans several innocent people who paid $64.64 (probably much more) for a game. While on the more logical side of dealing with this, giving a warning would do the same thing, but more. It would give innocent people another chance at playing the game, it would warn those who are purposely racist/sexist and ultimately give them a choice to either keep being racist/sexist or start playing the game without being mean (keeping a player in the matchmaking pool as well as eliminating anymore outbursts) or continue to be racist/sexist and then get banned, banning a sexist player while also keeping the innocent free and converting the wicked.

 

Effectively, they HAVE been warned. They were warned when they agreed to the XBL Code of Conduct before they even paid for their Gold subscription, and now they've just been reminded in case their memories have failed a little. There's nothing to stop them playing the actual game they paid for, they just can't access one service whose rules they failed to obey. The 'wicked' have just had their warning: now it's time to see if you and me right in hoping they'll be converted.

 

As I said above though, I am worried that there isn't enough transparency about the banning system, and they really do need to change things before anyone can feel that the system is going to work properly. When I say anyone who gets banned deserves it, I mean anyone who is actually guilty. If someone who gets banned is completely innocent, that's obviously unfair, and they need a way to publicly check the evidence against them and contest the decision if they don't agree with it. I think it's possible to contact the Policy Enforcement Team and ask them about any bans or suspensions, but I'm not sure whether they actually check the evidence or just tell you what you were accused of.

 

If they choose to not be mean anymore, then you literally have the same outcome in that situation. a racist comment was said "once." And for those who choose to say it a "second" time, well... then i suppose they would deserve a ban hammer.

 

Just once is bad enough. If tomorrow I were to break into someone's house and steal their television, should my only punishment be that I have to put it back, just because I've never been in serious trouble with the law before? And everyone's now had a big, public warning about it, so ignorance isn't really an excuse. People know they can't say it now, so if they do, for me that's as bad as being a repeat offender anyway.

 

Yet again you're ignoring the big picture and only taking into consideration the controllable outcomes. Last I checked, life happens. Whether we want it to or not. If a tree limb falls on my car and scratches it, I'd prefer the insurance.

 

Very true. But the flip side of 'life happens' is that sometimes, life hits back. This is one of those times.

 

But let me be clear about this

 

I am in no way saying that offending someone verbally is "ok" for someone to do. In fact, I go out of my way to call out those who do so in public. But to simply ban someone for life over something with so many potential outcomes is idiotic. If there weren't as many foreseeable outcomes, then yes, perma ban would be fine. But it's just simply not the right way to go.

 

I don't know if outcomes are as important as evidence. Provided a decision is made looking at all the relevant evidence and with the consequences of breaking the rules made clear in advance, then a permaban isn't unfair. But I agree that sometimes it's not as simple as 'she called him a bad word, let's ban her!'. If it's good-natured trash-talking, and everyone's quite happy to join in and understands that it's not meant maliciously, then obviously that SHOULD be taken into account when deciding whether to punish or not: same thing if a girl has been throwing abuse around for the whole game and people have been asking her to calm down, and someone finally tells her to 'go back to the kitchen' or whatever. That's responding to abuse with abuse and while neither of them are in the right in that case, it's not fair that someone who finally snapped after putting up with protracted abuse gets a permanent punishment, while the other walks away unharmed.

 

Exactly my friend.

 

Things like this are too sporadic to simply turn a perma ban on.

 

Literally, the ONLY thing making this not suitable for a permanent ban is the simple fact that there are way too many side factors to consider. I understand what you're saying RedStar, I really do, but it's just not a good enough choice to deal with a situation as complex as this.

 

Especially in a time period where people watch stand up comedians (who have nothing better to joke about than racism). Someone repeats the joke to their friend sitting next to them would be banned for "life" over it.

 

Hell, I'd even accept a week ban just to put them in time out, but an initial perma ban is just not realistic.

 

It still comes down to personal responsibility. If someone wants to tell a rude joke to someone over XBL, they could do it in a party, or a private chat, or via Live Messenger, or any number of things. Then again, I understand where you're coming from with the idea that situations can be complex: see the good-natured trash-talk example above. My friend and I insult each other all the time over things which could be considered racist, because I'm Scottish and he's English. But even then, there's an obvious disconnect between that and genuine hate speech because we're clearly both comfortable to go along with it, it's done in private, and we don't really mean any of what we're saying.

 

I guess it might help if there were more information about bans, and about the process of deciding whether to ban or not. Even if it was just:

• Was something bad said?
  
• Was it said in public?
  
• Was it in response to anything else?
  
• Was it aimed specifically at one person?
  
• Was it meant in good humour?
  
• Was the other person genuinely offended, and if they were, did the person who said it apologise?
  

Then I'd feel better about it. As is, I don't know what steps are taken to make sure the evidence is being properly examined, and I definitely understand why people are getting worried about it. I just think, in a nutshell, that if someone deliberately breaks a rule then they should be prepared to face the consequences. I think sometimes I get so caught up in what I'm arguing for that it stops actually being clear.

 

 

[gatekeeper8]

Believe it or not total idiots are calling this a blight to the first amendment.

well i must be a complete idiot then this is against that amendment aswell as freedom of expression where one has a right to express his opinions and it is a form of internet censorship also microsofts terms say and i quote/ LEGAL EFFECT. This agreement describes certain legal rights. You may have other rights under the laws of your country. This agreement does not change your rights under the laws of your country if the laws of your country do not permit it to do so./ so correct me if im wrong but dose this mean if u live in a cuntry that says they cant change your right then u are imune frome this ban and if so how fair is that also i can already see pepole who get mad at some one so they tell there fl to say he is making these coments how much abuse will come out of this i would understand a temp ban a life time is rediculise and if u ask me its not there place to say wat we can or canot say it is our deciseion of we want to say wat we say.

[Persian]

*Insert female stereotype about kitchens here*

 

A lot of guys are jerks to chicks over online games, then wonder why they aren't in a relationship.

 

Sexist jokes aside, I think this should have been done a while ago.

[Stu117]

Yeah but... if i discriminate against every1 is it really discrimination?

[Royal]

Sexism... but not racism?

 

Also I don't think the the people getting sexist comments towards them really care, It's xbox live.

[Echo of Sorrow]

If people take what other people, that they've never met, say to heart over the Internet they shouldn't be on it to begin with.

[Persian]

Yeah but... if i discriminate against every1 is it really discrimination?

 

How will you be discriminating EVERYONE?

"Log off you stupid Human!" "Your kind aren't welcome here?"

 

Sexism is always against a certain sex. Females/Males etc

Racism is about a certain race. African American, Asian, European w/e

 

You can't really discriminate everyone... it ruins the meaning of discrimination.

[The Director]

Sexism... but not racism?

 

Also I don't think the the people getting sexist comments towards them really care, It's xbox live.

Actually, you can file complaints against players for racist activity. If I recall correctly, it's under "abusive behavior" or some such.

 

Point in fact is though, I'm seeing a lot of "but it's stuff said over the internet, it shouldn't bother you." Firstly, X-Box Live is only a small part of the internet. If you feel as if you'd like to be an asshat (literally, a hat made out of a donkey) then you can feel free to do so elsewhere. The internet is a huge place. If you can't smack talk in a non-racist/sexist way, then quite frankly you suck at smack talking. Racist and sexist "smack talk" (if it can even be called that) is roughly the equivalent of "you're a dumb poopy head" intelligence wise.

 

Seriously, it's at the point where if you do come up with something clever that's racist or sexist, it's guaranteed to already have been said about 2000 times. There is absolutely no originality when it comes to sexist or racist jokes, and there hasn't been for years.

 

As far as "my first amendment rights!" goes, welcome to the internet. The internet is global, not centralized in any nation. Your rights given to you by your government don't apply here. The only rights you have are given to you by the owner of the hardware and software that you are using. If you do not like that, feel free to get off of the internet and go do something else. Perhaps go to a rally or a protest to use your beloved first amendment rights.