Halo 4 has a Gamebreaking Multiplayer Issue

[Pointy Rock]

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I've been an extreme Halo fanboy ever since Halo 1, although Halo 2's multiplayer is what really cemented me. I could play that game for hours. I was ecstatic when Halo 3 came out, and while it had a few issues that I didn't like, it was still an extremely solid game. In fact I played H3 far more than H2, I kind of don't wish to know how large of a chunk of my life that game took from me, but that's beside the point. I was just as excited for Halo Reach, and I waited in line for that one just like all of the previous games. I was so disappointed. Reach was unfathomably worse than it's predecessor, sure for a fps it was okay, but it was not Halo. Nor was it up to par with it either. I barely played any of Reach, perhaps two months but that's pushing it. Before I quit playing Reach I decided that despite the, what I thought to be, stupid armor abilities which made the game less fun, the real straw (or 10 ton weight) that broke the camel's back was the DMR. One simple gun ruined that game. The beauty of previous Halos' lied in the arguably balanced weapon set, and the crowning jewel, the BR. The BR was so perfect because it not only felt great to shoot, but it was hard to master. The BR required players to lead their shots depending on range of engagement, this required experience and thought.

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When the DMR replaced the BR, Halo was arguably ruined. The DMR has ZERO range limitations, has ZERO bullet travel time (Doesn't require you to lead your shots), does NOT have bullet spread, and fires insanely fast. These all are working in combination to make the DMR an ungodly killing machine. When I first started playing H4 I used the BR because of nostalgia, like I'm sure most did, but I quickly came to realize that the DMR was in it's own class. After switching to the DMR it was like night and day.

With the DMR, if you can see someone ANYWHERE on the map, regardless of range, you can kill them easily. The sniper rifles are almost rendered useless by this gun as you can pop off four shots at a sniper while popping in and out of cover before they can line up a clear headshot. The laser versus anything but vehicles is a joke, by the time you finish charging, you're dead. Maps are completely broken, there is no proper map control or flow. A player does not have to come out of cover to obtain weapons for two reasons. 1. Because entering an open area in a game with people that know what they are doing equates to nothing but almost instant death 2. He already spawns with one of the best weapons in the game. Now it isn't only the DMR I'm sure, I haven't used the alien equivolent, but I can assume it suffers, or rather excells from the same isues.

There are a few options to fix this glaring problem, the first is ABSOLUTELY necessary. DRASTICALLY reduce the range of ALL guns that should be mid range guns, etc. BR, DMR, Carbine. It ruins the game when players can shoot each other from across the entire map, there are just too many points of engagement and having your shield dropped within seconds of walking out from behind your base from someone sitting 200 yards away is laughably ludicrous. A section way to balance the mid range class guns would be to decrease their damage, and/or fire rate. Obviously significantly decreasing the effectiveness with the mid range guns would have an effect on everything, but I believe an entire overhaul is truly necessary. Multiplayer is just basically not fun.

BTW I'm not even sure why the BR even exists in this game other than to appease past gamers. The burst fire speed is increased by so much, that it's kind of unnecessary for it to even have that function. It's so quick that all the bullets are going to go where the crosshair is when you pull the trigger, you don't have to keep it on target while the entire spread lands. Why not just make it one shot, like the DMR, it feels that way anyway.

Sorry about the long rant, I just really love this game and I don't want to see it going in the way it is. While there are a few big issues in the multiplayer, I think 343 did an amazing job with other aspects. I mean somehow they implemented killstreaks in a Halo game, without ruining it. I kind of like them. That's not even mentioning the campaign. Dear God. That thing is the most amazing campaign out of any shooter in existence. Everything about it is perfect. Seeing 343 succeed so well at these things really makes me wonder how they dropped the ball so much in multiplayer. I really hope we, as the Halo community can get this changed, I know lots of us want things back to the way they were before Reach, before the DMR ruined Halo. 343 should definitely listen to it's community here, look at Reach and the failure that it was because of how broken it was. This game is going to have exactly the same thing happen to it if something isn't done to remedy the problem. People will stop playing. Hell I sort of already have, I get optimistic and try to play a few games before realizing that multiplayer hasn't magically been fixed and then turn on Netflix. Please listen to Halo's core audience, the audience that brought Halo to where it is now. 343 wouldn't even be in existence without the true Halo fans. Make Halo, Halo, and fix the multiplayer.

 

Sincerely,

Pointy Rock, and the rest of the Halo community

[Zanderos]

This is exactly my problem, too.

 

I would change few other things. But I don't see this happening, unfortunately. Custom loadouts are one of the cores of this new matchmaking system. There is no need to use any other weapon than a DMR. You could use no ordinances and ignore all "power weapons" that are laying around the map, and still completely own.

 

I am not going to tell another person how to have fun or that their version of fun is wrong, but for me, this new long-rage, Reach style of gameplay is not very fun at all. What happened to the fun fights of old, where you actually had to go locate your enemy? Now, it's over in all of 5 shots with the DMR from a safe distance. And why would I disadvantage myself by starting out with an AR? I would get owned.

 

Again, Halo 2 and 3 did have everyone trying to get the BR, but you have to remember that: 1) the BR had serious range limitations that the DMR does not, and 2) you didn't start out with one unless you were playing a specific gametype. By the way, why is the DMR still around? If it was an old gun, why do we have it in a time period that's ahead of the rest?

 

My real disbelief is that a lot of people seem to like this new style. Why do you prefer this DMR battle, as opposed to starting off with an AR? It was a challenge to kill the mother ****** with the sniper rifle, or BR, or whatever. You often had to use team work to take him down. Now, you can do it just fine by yourself, so long as you get the first DMR bullet in there.

[DrDorado]

Bring back BTB Objective playlists. 5 v 5? What is this, 2003???

[RedStarRocket91]

Everyone and their dog claims to have been playing competitive Halo since the second game, and yet nobody remember what a horrifying killing machine the Battle Rifle was back then. It didn't have bullet travel time; killed in four shots; had almost nothing in the way of bullet spread; and had a ton of aim assist. It didn't get nerfed in Halo 3 because Bungie wanted to focus more on short-range combat: it got nerfed because it was game-breakingly overpowered.

 

The only functional differences between the old Battle Rifle and the new DMR are that the the latter has less aim assist, a more powerful scope, and an increased kill time.

 

The new Battle Rifle is basically the same as it was in Halo 3: the new DMR is basically the Battle Rifle from Halo 2. If you don't believe me, boot up the old girl and play some splitscreen.

 

Anyway, the new Battle Rifle is still perfectly capable of beating the DMR one-on-one. As far as I can tell, the Battle Rifle has a very slightly faster kill time, so as long as every shot hits you shouldn't have any problems. Alternatively, try using an automatic weapon up close: the new Assault Rifle feels more powerful than any version since the original, and I've killed quite a few precision-weapon players up close with it, sometimes even after they'd landed the first shot.

 

The real difference as far as balance goes is now that the Battle Rifle is the most general-purpose of all the spawning weapons: it beats all of the others when outside their effective ranges, but loses when within them. Just use it at the correct distance and you'll win if your aim's up to standard. It's not longer a gun which is clearly superior to every other option, and to be honest, that's something I prefer over Halo 2.

 

As with the 'problems' with Sniper Rifles, they have an easier job than ever. Getting hit no longer kicks you out of your scope, so they don't have to worry about scoping back in while trying to line up a shot. A good sniper will still get a headshot if they have even half a second of visibility on a target, so in the time it takes to pop out and take your shot, you can quite easily be killed.

[Zanderos]

Once again, to reiterate, the DMR is more problematic due to the range and the fact that everyone starts out with it. It isn't the amount of shots in which it kills. You could not kill people from across the entire board using the BR. That's what made the BR in Halo 2 bearable. It even made team BRs (can't remember the names of the playlists anymore) bearable.

 

If you like that more, then you like it more.

 

EDIT: I guess I'm just surprised by your vehement opposition to the Halo 2 BR, when it seems as though the H4 DMR is even more overpowered than that. It shoots across the entire map and kills quickly, even at long distances.

[Pointy Rock]

Honestly man, if you're using the assault rifle as a starting weapon...I don't think you understand how ridiculously overpowered the DMR is right now. I never claimed to play H2 competitively, I was younger didn't really even know what I was doing when I played. Despite past games, THIS game is broken and needs fixed.

[Darth Clark]

DMR is too powerful. The BR doesnt even compare to it.

[Pointy Rock]

DMR is too powerful. The BR doesnt even compare to it.

Nothing does

[Zuko 'Zarhamee]

I've killed people using the DMR with everything from the BR to the Magnum. It's not overpowered. If someone kills you with it, then they're just a better player than you.

[bpstiff]

I've killed people using the DMR with everything from the BR to the Magnum. It's not overpowered. If someone kills you with it, then they're just a better player than you.

 

This. Yes, the DMR has very good range, but as long as you know what you're doing and you work with your team (which I know is not in the vocabulary of many Halo players), you will be fine. The DMR is not as grossly overpowered as some people seem to think.

[Zanderos]

I've killed people using the DMR with everything from the BR to the Magnum. It's not overpowered. If someone kills you with it, then they're just a better player than you.

 

Nice fallacious logic there. If I went to your house and shot you with a gun from across the room, and you had no weapon, I'm just a better fighter than you. Honestly though, so if someone kills you from 100 feet away with a DMR, and you have a plasma rifle, do you really think that he's "just a better player than you"?

 

You didn't refute any of the arguments made here.

 

This. Yes, the DMR has very good range, but as long as you know what you're doing and you work with your team (which I know is not in the vocabulary of many Halo players), you will be fine. The DMR is not as grossly overpowered as some people seem to think.

 

So what do you do when there is a coordinated team picking targets (read: shooting the same target) from long range with a DMR? Wait until you all have snipers? Give me a break. It has turned into a ranged-fest. Again, similar to the above poster, you only consider your specific situation and use that as leverage to make a point. You have to consider all situations, or your argument holds less weight. Simply saying "work together and you'll be fine" is not a solution. Do you really want to be confined to one or two specific strategies to take out a group of camping DMRs? I highly doubt that.

[bpstiff]

Nice fallacious logic there. If I went to your house and shot you with a gun from across the room, and you had no weapon, I'm just a better fighter than you. Honestly though, so if someone kills you from 100 feet away with a DMR, and you have a plasma rifle, do you really think that he's "just a better player than you"?

 

You didn't refute any of the arguments made here.

 

 

 

So what do you do when there is a coordinated team picking targets (read: shooting the same target) from long range with a DMR? Wait until you all have snipers? Give me a break.

 

So are you saying skill has nothing to do with it? Because it sure sounds like it.

[Zanderos]

So are you saying skill has nothing to do with it? Because it sure sounds like it.

 

No. When forming an argument, however, you have to assume that each side has the same exact skill level.

[bpstiff]

No. When forming an argument, however, you have to assume that each side has the same exact skill level.

]

 

No you don't. Skill level is the biggest determining factor in who wins a battle. Also, some people excel at using certain weapons as opposed to others. There are a lot of factors involved. Some people excel with the DMR while other people just can not use it skillfully. The same thing applies for the BR. Hell, one of my buddies LOVES the assault rifle and cleans up with it rather nicely. I, on the other hand, can not use the AR to save my life (literally). The effectiveness of a weapon depends entirely on the person using it.

[Natsu]

I can't take anyone seriously who thinks the DMR is the problem but says they have played Halo since its dawn. Halo at its core has always been about super powerful utility weapons that would give players more than a chance to beat even power weapons in head on combat. That is what Halo was about in every game except 3 and Reach. All you people who have a problem with the DMR must have jumped on board with Halo 3. That game and Reach were the worst in the series. The BR in Halo 2 COULD 4 shot people across the map just as quick as this game's DMR can. Halo CE had a 3 shot kill pistol across the entire map, and is regarded as the best Halo game among competitive players. Halo 3's BR ruined absolutely everything and made the game into a rock, paper, scissors game, which is the stupidest kind of balance. It was just "this gun wins at this range." That is fake balance. Real balance is when everyone starts with a capable gun at all ranges and is the go-to gun at all times, but there are mild alt weapons that you can use which have slight niches at other things. That is the very definition of how Halo CE and Halo 2 played, and it is also how Halo 4 is turning out to be. Halo 3 and Reach ruined Halo utterly by limiting the strength of the main utility weapons.

[Zanderos]

]

 

No you don't. Skill level is the biggest determining factor in who wins a battle. Also, some people excel at using certain weapons as opposed to others. There are a lot of factors involved. Some people excel with the DMR while other people just can not use it skillfully. The same thing applies for the BR. Hell, one of my buddies LOVES the assault rifle and cleans up with it rather nicely. I, on the other hand, can not use the AR to save my life (literally). The effectiveness of a weapon depends entirely on the person using it.

 

You're confusing skill level with strategy, man. A developer doesn't balance guns or games around the fact that one opponent sucks and the other doesn't. That would make for a ridiculous game. How can you argue otherwise? Do you undetstand how farfatched that would be? Every gun would be the exact same, due to varying skill levels.

 

I would love to see your AR buddy go up against me with a DMR. As long as I keep myself up high with no corners around me, your buddy is going to be forced to come to me to get a kill, not the other way around. And since I would never put myself in a situation with the DMR where I would give your buddy an opportunity to get into shooting distance without putting damage on him, your buddy is never going to kill me.

 

It's like saying you could beat a BR in Halo 2 with an assault rifle. Yeah, only if the BR guy is an idiot. That's why you can't take skill level into account when developing a game.

 

 

I can't take anyone seriously who thinks the DMR is the problem but says they have played Halo since its dawn. Halo at its core has always been about super powerful utility weapons that would give players more than a chance to beat even power weapons in head on combat. That is what Halo was about in every game except 3 and Reach. All you people who have a problem with the DMR must have jumped on board with Halo 3. That game and Reach were the worst in the series. The BR in Halo 2 COULD 4 shot people across the map just as quick as this game's DMR can. Halo CE had a 3 shot kill pistol across the entire map, and is regarded as the best Halo game among competitive players. Halo 3's BR ruined absolutely everything and made the game into a rock, paper, scissors game, which is the stupidest kind of balance. It was just "this gun wins at this range." That is fake balance. Real balance is when everyone starts with a capable gun at all ranges and is the go-to gun at all times, but there are mild alt weapons that you can use which have slight niches at other things. That is the very definition of how Halo CE and Halo 2 played, and it is also how Halo 4 is turning out to be. Halo 3 and Reach ruined Halo utterly by limiting the strength of the main utility weapons.

 

Once again, you miss the point.

 

You start out with the DMR, and it's very long range. That's what everyone is saying.

 

The BR in H2 never shot from across the entire board like the DMR does. Just as with the other post I quoted, your type of balance would consist of one weapon. You do understand what's what you're arguing for, if not a rock/paper/scissors type of style, right? Why offer different weapons at all, in that case, if you want everyone to start off on the same level? So the poor idiots who don't understand can choose the AR and be fodder to the DMR people?

[Natsu]

You started out with the BR in Halo 2 every single time, unless you were a scrub and played Bungie slayer. That is precisely how it should be, a capable starter weapon that has an answer to everything. That was what Halo CE had in mind, it's what other similar competitive games like Shadowrun attempted. I absolutely hate AR starts with a passion. It takes zero skill to play that mode, it's all rock, paper, scissors based on which guns you happened to pick up and go up against. Real skill in shooters takes away all extraneous variables and stratifies everything.

 

Edit: And WOW. Have you never played Halo 2??? The BR in that game insta killed you in 4 shots regardless of range. There is absolutely no difference between the DMR and Halo 2 BR. The burst did not decrease your potential range unless you were on some BTB map.

[Zanderos]

Edit: And WOW. Have you never played Halo 2??? The BR in that game insta killed you in 4 shots regardless of range. There is absolutely no difference between the DMR and Halo 2 BR. The burst did not decrease your potential range unless you were on some BTB map.

 

I guess your H2 experience was different than mine. I don't remember complaining about the range on the BR nearly as much as I have about the DMR. The BR was overpowered in H2, though.

 

I'm still confused. If you don't want a rock/paper/scissors style of play, why argue for different weapons at all? Why not ask for everyone to start out with the same weapon? You're all on a perfectly even playing field at that point.

[bpstiff]

Zanderos,

 

I agree. It comes down to strategy and HOW YOU USE THE WEAPON. It doesn't make the weapon overpowered if you have the SKILL and KNOWLEDGE to know how to use it effectively. Yes, the DMR is powerful. So is the BR, the AR, the Magnum, hell, even that Promethian handgun is beastly in close range. EVERY weapon is strong as **** in this game. However, they are not all suited for the same situations, obviously. They are all equally strong in their own right. This is, of course, my opinion and you clearly disagree with me. So let's just agree to disagree.

[Real Talk]

You started out with the BR in Halo 2 every single time, unless you were a scrub and played Bungie slayer. That is precisely how it should be, a capable starter weapon that has an answer to everything. That was what Halo CE had in mind, it's what other similar competitive games like Shadowrun attempted. I absolutely hate AR starts with a passion. It takes zero skill to play that mode, it's all rock, paper, scissors based on which guns you happened to pick up and go up against. Real skill in shooters takes away all extraneous variables and stratifies everything.

 

Edit: And WOW. Have you never played Halo 2??? The BR in that game insta killed you in 4 shots regardless of range. There is absolutely no difference between the DMR and Halo 2 BR. The burst did not decrease your potential range unless you were on some BTB map.

 

The way the DMR is right now makes it basically a Sniper. Especially on the big maps like Ragnarok (?). However when in close to medium range the DMR guy can easily be killed.

[Natsu]

That's exactly what Halo has always been about though. In competitive Halo CE and Halo 2, everyone started with the utility weapon that had an out to everything at all ranges. Then there were *niche* weapons that were mildly advantageous in select instances like rocket launcher in a hallway, sniper for longer ranges, shotgun for CQB. The way Halo 3 had it, it dictated who won each encounter by the weapon in and of itself. In Halo CE, 2 MLG settings, and Halo 4, the fights can always be salvaged with the utility weapon unless you are caught in the niche weapons range (AR/Shotgun up close in CE, rockets in a cramped space in H2, Saw up close in H4. The weapons have their niches but the utility weapon should still be bread and butter, not just another selection on even footing with other weapons: a mid-range niche weapon basically. That turns the entire weapon pool into a bunch of niche guns, which leads to randomness and rock, paper, scissors gameplay.

 

I agree with you about how skill level should have no place in balancing guns though. It's best to assume maximum skill and balance guns around that. The only problem I'm having with H4 now is that there isn't enough incentive on all maps to move towards the middle and get map control. If more maps had pre-set rockets and snipers spawning in the middle then the fights would move forward a little more.

[Zanderos]

Zanderos,

 

I agree. It comes down to strategy and HOW YOU USE THE WEAPON. It doesn't make the weapon overpowered if you have the SKILL and KNOWLEDGE to know how to use it effectively. Yes, the DMR is powerful. So is the BR, the AR, the Magnum, hell, even that Promethian handgun is beastly in close range. EVERY weapon is strong as **** in this game. However, they are not all suited for the same situations, obviously. They are all equally strong in their own right. This is, of course, my opinion and you clearly disagree with me. So let's just agree to disagree.

 

No, I don't disagree with you. There are certain guns that are better at close range than long range, and vice versa.

 

However, it's the range that comes into play. A person that has a good close range weapon has far fewer strategies available to beat the enemy. Since he is FORCED to go after the long range person (assuming the DMR guy isn't running around narrow hallways), that gives the DMR guy an inherent advantage. He can force the shotgun guy to attempt to get into close range. He can force the shotgun guy to get into situations where he's at a disadvantage, and not the other way around.

 

Is that a little clearer than what I was saying before?

 

And really, to everyone saying the BR had a similar range to the DMR, are you sure about that? I know it's been a long time since H2, but I just do not remember the BR as having anywhere close to the range that the DMR has.

[Natsu]

[Zanderos]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ079MdYA08

 

Point well taken. I guess that's why I liked Halo 3 so much more.

 

The only thing I have to say about that -The range in Midship was never really that far away. However, the guy is using a sniper scope to first zoom in right on his face. Am I wrong in thinking that the H4 DMR has better range capabilities than the H2 BR?

[Natsu]

Also, about the whole forcing range thing. I kind of agree with you, but it also is dependent on maps and player abilities. For instance, in Call of Duty games, it was impossible to force a long range battle when you had the sniper rifle. Close quarters people could move fast enough and use enough cover and grenade distractions to always force the engagement range in CQB, making snipers inherently disadvantaged in Cod games unless they were really fast and powerful. One of the reasons why snipers sucked horribly in the Treyarch Cod games, because the developers stubbornly thought that a sniper could just force the range to be at long range.

 

In this game though, It is kind of the other way around because Halo maps tend to be wide open fields. But I do believe there is potential for AR users to stick to cover and use certain armor abilities and infinite sprint to force their range all the time in CQB. Is that gonna happen on Ragnarok and Meltdown? No, but I have been using the AR as my primary for a bit and on the smaller 4-4 maps I have been having extreme success using things like Camo or thruster packs to get in close and then start Ghandi-hopping all over the DMR users and spraying them down. What's really funny is when they think they can punch me, jump back and headshot me real quick except I just mow them down with pure AR power. I like using the AR as a primary mainly because everyone uses DMR starts, so oftentimes I can just pick a DMR up as soon as I spawn and have the firepower perk for free. But anyways, I do think there is potential for an AR user to use its niche range on certain maps and with certain abilities. Again, like you said, assume perfect skill of all players and a good AR user should be able to force their engagement range in CQB on 80% of the maps in the game, and the DMR isn't so deadly that it shreds AR users in 10-15 ft range either, even if they hit all shots.