Skill Rank Desicions and Thoughts!

[Death Panda x]

As you may have heard, the CSR (Competitive Skill Ranking) System is set to drop early 2013. But 343 is undecided about weather or not to give you a fresh start and start at skill level 1, or put skill ranks in based on what you already have done. 343 says they are tracking your skill rank right now, but just haven't implemented the skill system in yet so you can't see it.

 

Personally, I think keeping the skill ranks instead of resetting it is a terrible idea. First off we don't know what playlists are competitive and which are social. Next, all playlists have Join in Progress. If the Skill system if based off if you win or lose (which it better be) than having people joining and quiting your match could completely mess up your skill rank. And last of all, the game is defiantly not developed enough to start tracking skill. As the game stands now, there are many problems that could interfere with your wins and loses.

 

None of this would really matter, except your skill can get very hard to change if you get incosietant with your wins and loses. Let's say you win a few here, the lose a few there, and overall are just unpredictable winning/losing games. If that has happened then the skill rank can seem to be really hard to move up or down in either direction. A more explained look at the system can be found here: http://www.bungie.net/forums/posts.aspx?postid=14414600

In short, it basically states that inconsistansy = slow rank movement up and down, and vise versa. And since I'm sure most off you had been playing with randoms you probably have already been very inconsistent, and a fresh start would be a much better option for you in that. I'm not for sure saying that's how the CSR system will work, but they are sticking to something very similiar to the old trueskill system.

 

Other concearns I have that we should tell 343 to do is tell them that they shouldn't make your skill rank only visible on Halo Waypoint, which is currently what they plan on doing. They should also keep it win/lose based and not personal stat based system. This is because Halo is a very team based game, and personal stats can't detect your callouts, teamwork, etc.

 

I made this thread so we can make sure 343 makes a great system, because honestly the fate of the Halo series depends on it.

[LowrAtown NC]

Show Skill Rank in the game

Reset it when you update

Make us happy.

[shred1894]

Seeing how I got to SR-35 in 3 days, I would not like them to reset my stuff. I did a lot to get my rank.

[LowrAtown NC]

Not your SR rank, just your skill level.

[electr0nicninja]

I like the new system and think that game types should be based off of sr rank and not skill. Just my opinion.

[Field of Mangos]

Unfortunately, Skill Rank will probably have to be reset when the ranking system rolls out. I'm personally fine with my performance being judged now, but the crybabies who think that H4 isn't competitive enough will come up with a world of excuses on how the ranking system is "broken" if they aren't a 45-50 on day 1. You people should be smart enough by now, 343i could roll out the best ranking system in the history of gaming, and the "mob mentality" will rip it apart if their ranking doesn't match with their perception of themselves.

[mrpewterschmidt]

1. No

2. Yes

3. PARTIALLY yes.... You want to be rewarded for good KD AND for helping your team win. Sometimes I rack up a **** KD on king of the hill, despite having the most points and the most time spent capturing the hill

[DaviesGaming]

I said no, yes and partially yes (though I voted no)

 

The skill shouldn't be on wins and losses. Sometimes a team can lose because of 1 bad player. IF I do good in a game, I dont want to have my skill rank lowered because of someone who done badly.

[Death Panda x]

If you've been playing with randoms instead of with a team of you're friends, you are more than likely winning inconsistently and if that's the case believe me you want it to be reset lol

 

If the skill rank is based on personal stats though I believe it could be a problem as it gives no reason to work as a team try to win. And baseing it off K/D sounds even worse as K/D really doesn't matter.

[Daniel Alexander Bouwman]

As you may have heard, the CSR (Competitive Skill Ranking) System is set to drop early 2013. But 343 is undecided about weather or not to give you a fresh start and start at skill level 1, or put skill ranks in based on what you already have done. 343 says they are tracking your skill rank right now, but just haven't implemented the skill system in yet so you can't see it.

 

Personally, I think keeping the skill ranks instead of resetting it is a terrible idea. First off we don't know what playlists are competitive and which are social. Next, all playlists have Join in Progress. If the Skill system if based off if you win or lose (which it better be) than having people joining and quiting your match could completely mess up your skill rank. And last of all, the game is defiantly not developed enough to start tracking skill. As the game stands now, there are many problems that could interfere with your wins and loses.

 

None of this would really matter, except your skill can get very hard to change if you get incosietant with your wins and loses. Let's say you win a few here, the lose a few there, and overall are just unpredictable winning/losing games. If that has happened then the skill rank can seem to be really hard to move up or down in either direction. A more explained look at the system can be found here: http://www.bungie.ne...postid=14414600

In short, it basically states that inconsistansy = slow rank movement up and down, and vise versa. And since I'm sure most off you had been playing with randoms you probably have already been very inconsistent, and a fresh start would be a much better option for you in that. I'm not for sure saying that's how the CSR system will work, but they are sticking to something very similiar to the old trueskill system.

 

Other concearns I have that we should tell 343 to do is tell them that they shouldn't make your skill rank only visible on Halo Waypoint, which is currently what they plan on doing. They should also keep it win/lose based and not personal stat based system. This is because Halo is a very team based game, and personal stats can't detect your callouts, teamwork, etc.

 

I made this thread so we can make sure 343 makes a great system, because honestly the fate of the Halo series depends on it.

 

Well I agree with you. I noticed a player SR rating was at 51????? i was confused as I thought SR 50 was the highest, is this a glitch? If not then what is the highest SR rating available? I hope they sort this out. And I wish the ranking system was identical to Halo 3!!

[Perfectious]

Seeing how I got to SR-35 in 3 days, I would not like them to reset my stuff. I did a lot to get my rank.

That would be your experience rank.

 

We are talking about what the actual ranks will be like in halo 3, how it ranked you 1-50

[Death Panda x]

.

 

 

Well I agree with you. I noticed a player SR rating was at 51????? i was confused as I thought SR 50 was the highest, is this a glitch? If not then what is the highest SR rating available? I hope they sort this out. And I wish the ranking system was identical to Halo 3!!

Once you get to 50 you can get specializations until level 130. I too hope it's identical to Halo 3 that game was the best and had the best ranking system.

 

[Sharrief Ibn Kamal Shabazz]

In my opinion, skill should be based on a combination of win/losses and personal performance, and this balance should change depending on the game type.

 

Purely basing the system off of wins and losses discourages me from hopping into 4v4 matches with random people, because I may perform very well and still lose, or I may have a horrible performance and win. Both cases happen fairly frequently and thus their affect on my skill rating should be mitigated.

 

I believe including personal performance statistics can help mitigate this affect. Some argue that using personal performance statistics can reduce the incentive for teamwork, and I ask you to look at how players are tracked in sports. A player's team's effectiveness is not included in their personal statistics. We judge NBA, NFL, MLB, etc. players based on their individual performance. Great individual performance is a good indicator of winning ability, but not necessarily the other way around. And when we look for another Halo 4 players skill rating, we are usually looking for an indicator of their individual performance anyway.

 

The old True Skill system (based strictly on win-loss, derived from the ELO system) is great for ranking one-on-one games, like chess. But Microsoft has been using it as an all-purpose ranking system for all of Microsoft Studios games. I think headshots, assists, melee kills, and other skill kills (accuracy and distractions too) are more important and much more indicative of skill than a simple win or loss.

 

Now that being said, K/D ratios make sense to be a part of the skill rating in slayer matches, and assists should be highly emphasized (maybe even 1.5 times the weight of a kill, this would drastically increase teamwork and reduce the desire to "steal kills"). But for capture the flag, defensive and offensive plays should be the basis. For other objective game types, K/D ratio or spread should be only a marginal factor in skill rating.

 

In my opinion, as was partly the case in Halo: Reach, your score in a match should reflect your performance in that game type (slayer, oddball, ctf, etc.), and should tie in directly with your publicly visible skill rating, so that you know how your skill rating is calculated.

 

ADDENDUM: I think it would also help if when looking at a players statistics you could view their Slayer K/D ratio separate from other game types wherein kills are not the objective. This would reduce the desire for players to jump into CTF games just to get easy kills on those putting in genuine effort to play CTF. With the reduced anxiety about dying too often, players would be able to fully enjoy the great objective based games Halo 4 offers.

[IManifestationI]

ADDENDUM: I think it would also help if when looking at a players statistics you could view their Slayer K/D ratio separate from other game types wherein kills are not the objective. This would reduce the desire for players to jump into CTF games just to get easy kills on those putting in genuine effort to play CTF. With the reduced anxiety about dying too often, players would be able to fully enjoy the great objective based games Halo 4 offers.

 

So, uhh...like a 1-50 (NOT SAYING WE SHOULD COPY HALO 3) for different playlists. That sounds like a good idea. *wink wink*

[Death Panda x]

In my opinion, skill should be based on a combination of win/losses and personal performance, and this balance should change depending on the game type.

 

Purely basing the system off of wins and losses discourages me from hopping into 4v4 matches with random people, because I may perform very well and still lose, or I may have a horrible performance and win. Both cases happen fairly frequently and thus their affect on my skill rating should be mitigated.

 

I believe including personal performance statistics can help mitigate this affect. Some argue that using personal performance statistics can reduce the incentive for teamwork, and I ask you to look at how players are tracked in sports. A player's team's effectiveness is not included in their personal statistics. We judge NBA, NFL, MLB, etc. players based on their individual performance. Great individual performance is a good indicator of winning ability, but not necessarily the other way around. And when we look for another Halo 4 players skill rating, we are usually looking for an indicator of their individual performance anyway.

 

The old True Skill system (based strictly on win-loss, derived from the ELO system) is great for ranking one-on-one games, like chess. But Microsoft has been using it as an all-purpose ranking system for all of Microsoft Studios games. I think headshots, assists, melee kills, and other skill kills (accuracy and distractions too) are more important and much more indicative of skill than a simple win or loss.

 

Now that being said, K/D ratios make sense to be a part of the skill rating in slayer matches, and assists should be highly emphasized (maybe even 1.5 times the weight of a kill, this would drastically increase teamwork and reduce the desire to "steal kills"). But for capture the flag, defensive and offensive plays should be the basis. For other objective game types, K/D ratio or spread should be only a marginal factor in skill rating.

 

In my opinion, as was partly the case in Halo: Reach, your score in a match should reflect your performance in that game type (slayer, oddball, ctf, etc.), and should tie in directly with your publicly visible skill rating, so that you know how your skill rating is calculated.

 

ADDENDUM: I think it would also help if when looking at a players statistics you could view their Slayer K/D ratio separate from other game types wherein kills are not the objective. This would reduce the desire for players to jump into CTF games just to get easy kills on those putting in genuine effort to play CTF. With the reduced anxiety about dying too often, players would be able to fully enjoy the great objective based games Halo 4 offers.

 

I agree with most of the stuff you said but it would be very hard to implement a system based on all that. Like if you win or lose you go up or down. But how would you go and down based of stats. And even if they did put some super complex system in like that we would get it in like a year knowing 343. So I am fine with the win/lose as long as it does drop early 2013, because this game is really starting to get old without it.

[Crymzen]

1. no, i would prefer they would not reset but if they do i'm not gonna cry about it

2. Yes..what's the point if it's not visible in game?

 

3. hell no, it should be based objectively, being a team player

 

Win/Loss is no different than halo 3..people who don't really deserve the rank get ranked up from being carried..if you want this to reflect skill then it needs to take EVERYTHING skill worthy into account, Assists, K/D, flag caps, flag defences, hill time, ball time, average life and so on..no vehicle kills, no splaser kills or rail gun kills or sword kills or anything cheap. if you ignore all that stuff and just base it off of win/loss then it's pointless in it even being there in the first place

[Pbvl]

Thank you for posting on this issue. The ranking system for halo has been the biggest reason why I have stuck to halo for the past 10 years and do not spend my hours of gaming on Cod or gears. I liked the divisions in reach for arena but the best has been halo 3s numbered system.

 

Make the ranking as close to halo 3 and base it on a combination of individual performance and team wins. Put an added emphasis on assists and let the best man win.

[Echo of Sorrow]

1. Yes, I don't see why they shouldn't reset it.

2. Yes, I don't have any interest of going on Halo Waypoint to see my skill ranking

3. No, like many have stated above me that should only be a part of it and not the whole thing. Winning/Losing isn't the only part, it should factor in K/D, total game score, ect. Basically what Sharrief Ibn Kaal Shabazz said.

[Royal]

I feel that basing the rank on wins and loses is the way to go, but there is that odd game you can go +15 and still lose so I'm not entirely sure.

[Death Panda x]

 

 

3. hell no, it should be based objectively, being a team player

 

Win/Loss is no different than halo 3..people who don't really deserve the rank get ranked up from being carried..if you want this to reflect skill then it needs to take EVERYTHING skill worthy into account, Assists, K/D, flag caps, flag defences, hill time, ball time, average life and so on..no vehicle kills, no splaser kills or rail gun kills or sword kills or anything cheap. if you ignore all that stuff and just base it off of win/loss then it's pointless in it even being there in the first place

 

If you ever plan on actually getting a 50 you know that you need a TEAM. Party up with you friends or find some good people. If you play with randoms you never going to get to 40+. And if you Can't find friends to play with, play lone wolves.

[upton889]

Rank should be visible and should be reset when CSR launches. I would like to see my level increase from day one.

 

As far as team games go, I think it should be based on wins and losses. Stats don't tell the whole story when it comes to teamwork, which is why wins and losses are an important measuring tool. Communication and other intangibles are immeasurable and usually the best team will have the people with the best K/D ratios anyway (not all the time but most). As far as regicide/ffa, maybe skill rank should be based more off of kills+assists/death ratio. Sometimes the best the player in the game doesn't win simply because of the luck factor involved with finding people.

[Apache4]

Rank should be visible and should be reset when CSR launches. I would like to see my level increase from day one.

 

As far as team games go, I think it should be based on wins and losses. Stats don't tell the whole story when it comes to teamwork, which is why wins and losses are an important measuring tool. Communication and other intangibles are immeasurable and usually the best team will have the people with the best K/D ratios anyway (not all the time but most). As far as regicide/ffa, maybe skill rank should be based more off of kills+assists/death ratio. Sometimes the best the player in the game doesn't win simply because of the luck factor involved with finding people.

 

^This! All you guys saying it should be based off more than a win and loss ratio don't make any sense. In professional sports all that matters is winning. Yea, you might get paid more for your individual stats, but its a TEAM game.

 

Last year Kevin Durant was the leading scorer in the NBA, but his team lost the championship. Their team didn't play as well collectively as the heat. You can argue all day about stats and whoa better than who, but at the end of the day its all about who won the game.

 

This attitude of reward me because I played well, doesn't make sense. All those stats are already tracked and you are rewarded for them via the progressive system that's already in place.

 

Winning and loosing. That's what's important. Its the whole point of the game. If you want to be judged individually then FFA is where its at.

[Esscex]

^This! All you guys saying it should be based off more than a win and loss ratio don't make any sense. In professional sports all that matters is winning. Yea, you might get paid more for your individual stats, but its a TEAM game.

 

Last year Kevin Durant was the leading scorer in the NBA, but his team lost the championship. Their team didn't play as well collectively as the heat. You can argue all day about stats and whoa better than who, but at the end of the day its all about who won the game.

 

This attitude of reward me because I played well, doesn't make sense. All those stats are already tracked and you are rewarded for them via the progressive system that's already in place.

 

Winning and loosing. That's what's important. Its the whole point of the game. If you want to be judged individually then FFA is where its at.

 

What do you mean wanting to be rewarded for playing well doesn't make sense?! That's absolutely ridiculous. The problem with your analogy is, we ARE being ranked individually, not as a team of twelve players acting as one body. The ranking system should reflect more than just wins and losses because even though we have the option of playing as a team, we want our personal statistics to determine our personal rank. A player who plays really well shouldn't be penalized because he ended up playing with some bad players that caused his team to lose. The same goes for vice versa: A very poor player shouldn't be able to be carried to a 50 (or the equivelant of), simply because they play with very skilled players, while barley contributing themselves.

 

Having a ranking system acknowledge more than just (but by no means excluding) wins and losses is the only way to display a players true skill.

[upton889]

What do you mean wanting to be rewarded for playing well doesn't make sense?! That's absolutely ridiculous. The problem with your analogy is, we ARE being ranked individually, not as a team of twelve players acting as one body. The ranking system should reflect more than just wins and losses because even though we have the option of playing as a team, we want our personal statistics to determine our personal rank. A player who plays really well shouldn't be penalized because he ended up playing with some bad players that caused his team to lose. The same goes for vice versa: A very poor player shouldn't be able to be carried to a 50 (or the equivelant of), simply because they play with very skilled players, while barley contributing themselves.

 

Having a ranking system acknowledge more than just (but by no means excluding) wins and losses is the only way to display a players true skill.

 

I see your point but team games are about more than stats and individual skills, as stated in the previous post. And I think we can agree that maybe wins and losses combined with individual stats should decide a person's skill level. Maybe progress more rapidly if you win and do well, than if you win and do poorly? And the same concept for ranking down (play poorly in a loss and be pentalized more, play good in a loss and get little pentalization). Just throwing ideas out there. I get what you're saying about stats because somebody can absolutely carry a team and still lose, I understand. Happens to me all the time. But rank in team playlists should be based on more than just individual stats.

[Quantumizer]

What they should do is keep the current EXP system, and add a Rumble Pit playlist that is not join in progress and where you earn your TrueSkill rank. Regardless, the TrueSkill rank MUST be symbols like Halo 2 and Reach, it is empty and not exciting just getting a number.

 

And yeah, the ranking system should be primarily wins and losses, but also K/D and hit ratio.