Convenant Carbine - Technically Flawed

[ZeroFlame]

DISCLAIMER: I applaud 343i's balancing for being one of (if not) the best multiplayer balancing feats ever. Any and all critisism regarding flaws in my logic should be constructive. Thank you.

 

In this post I will explain through various means why the Covenant Carbine in Halo 4 is a technically flawed primary weapon. This doesn't mean it's outright terrible, because there are plently of circumstances in which it is effective, but something's not correct. I will also provide various solutions to ammend the issues I've found with the weapon.

 

First, let's recognize why the Carbine is on par with it's two other precision weapon brethern, the DMR and BR. This is a shot list below demonstrating such:

 

CHARACTERISTIC: CC, DMR, BR

FIre rate (RPM): ~257, ~155, ~155 (accounting for 1200 RPM burst and 0.5 second delay)

Shots to down Shield: 7, 4, 12 (4 bursts of 3)

Headshots: 1 for all

Shots to kill an unshielded body: 5, 3, 7 (3 in a burst, one shot out of last 3 can kill)

 

Now what we should really consider is that most players are experienced enough to aim for the head, at which point the last values are obsolete. Judging from these characteristics, we could say very liberally that they are all about the same lethality. And that is true, somewhat, when you're talking about just ONE enemy. In fact, due to the compiled nature of the shots, the hypothetical Time to Kill (TTK) of the CC is greater than both the DMR and the BR, respectively. But let's go back a second. What happens when you're trying to kill more than one enemy?

 

Under the circumstance that every person is 100% accurate and lands nothing more than the necessary shots to kill with a headshot, the following replecates the ammo required to do such:

KILLS: AMMO LEFT FOR WEAPONS (CC, DMR, BR)

One: (18- = 10, (14-5) = 9, (36-15) = 21

Two: (10- = 2, (9-5) = 4, (21-15) = 6 (divide by three, explained below)

Three: (2- = -6, (4-5) = -1, (6-15) = -9 (divide by three, explained below)

 

What can we take from this? First, the values designated by the "Two:" row indicate how many "compensation shots" the user would have left to finish off the opponent(s) (remember, this was under the impression that everyone was 100% accurate, which no one actually is). In this, we find that the DMR has a full 4 compensation shots to use between the two enemies. That's an average of two compensation shots per enemy. This is very gracious for such a precise weapon.

Either way, let's move onto the CC and BR, which have 2 and 6 respectively (when you divide by the 3 shots per burst that are fired it's still 2), so they're both the same... right? Consider this - every burst fired with the BR contains three bullets, only one of which actually needs to be lethal. So it's really not necessary, if at all in the first place, to take more than one compensation shot, or burst for that matter. The CC actually needs to land one of two lethal headshots per each enemy, otherwise the user won't be left with enough ammunition to finish the job. That's why, from that standpoint, the CC is already worse than the BR and DMR.

 

Now take the second point, which is under the "Three:" section, containing all the negative numbers. This is what we could call the "clean-up" values, or how many extra headshots it'll take to kill the third enemy once you've killed the two above (again, not accounting for ANY lapses in accuracy, totally ignoring the first segment we've discussed above). Looking again at the DMR, you'd need only 1 more headshot from your pistol to finish off the opponent. Triple kills, all things aside, should be pretty easy.

This time, the BR and CC are not even relatively close. The BR has a value of -9, translates to 3 shots from your pistol of choice. Quite a bit worse than the DMR, but not as bad as what you'll see next.

So you'd like a Triple Kill with the CC? FORGET IT. You'd need a full 6 (TWICE as much as the BR and SIX TIMES as much than the DMR) headshots to clean up the job afterwards for that third guy, at which point, you'd be better off running away and reloading or something. Assuming you can actually do that, you're probably extremely talented at getting headshots with everything.

 

Throw human error into the mix and you have yourself a weapon of which just doesn't compete in terms with the other two comparable primary loadout precision weapons. Sure, you could down the shields with other means, and say that the DMR has more sway etc, but I'm just talking on a pure technical basis here. There's a problem, and it needs to be addressed.

 

Below are some solutions I'd like for someone to consider here. If you have your own or are in support of any of these, please reply:

 

SOLUTION 1: Increase magazine size to 22

This would eliminate most issues with our little ammo conservation problem, keeping the lethal capacity at a cap of 2 kills like the other ones. If you chose 22, that leaves 4 compensation shots comparable to that of the DMR, and would make it take only 4 pistol headshots to finish off, one worse than the BR. You get one good and one bad, which is better than two crumby stats. 23 rounds would push each number up one, which could make the gun a little bit too good.

 

SOLUTION 2: Decrease shield threshold from 7 to 6 shots

Effectively changing the "Two kill" equation to (18-(2*7)) = 4 compensation shots and (4-7) = 3 pistol shots, which is more subtle than changing it to 23 rounds but at the same time is more effective than a 22 round improvement since it not only changes it from 4 to 3 pistol shots, but also lowers the TTK on each successive individual opponent.

 

SOLUTION 3 (kinda extreme): Worsen the other two weapons

The DMR could be worsened by cutting one or two bullets, and the BR by cutting the ammo count to 33 or one less burst. These are fair enough options that would force these guns to be more conservative with their ammo exhaustion.

 

NOTE: This took me a considerable amount of time to create. If you don't mind, the feedback for this topic would be greatly appreciated. Again, I'm being logical about this, so please be constructive in your feedback as we try to solve these issues regarding this weapon. If you disagree with my statistics, I can show proof on demand. However, I should inform you that all of these statistics were privately tested and calculated using my game and HD PVR recordings broken down in Sony Vegas.

 

Thank you again. Looking forward to those responses.

.

[Christian.]

If your a skilled player, does it really matter what gun you use?

[Zelda]

I dont have nothing to say, but this.

For your first thread, it was very well done. You took time on it.

 

And I hope to see more of your posts.

[ZeroFlame]

If your a skilled player, does it really matter what gun you use?

 

Maybe not quite as much. I can do well with any gun in the game, but I'm simply trying to find a solution aside from "get better at the game". Even though this post may not do anything, it'll still be my perspective, and in the mean time, I'll find another weapon to use.

[emeraldriver]

Yeah, there's way too much maths for not only myself, but possibly everyone who will read this, to really discuss your modus operandi in much detail with you. Fantastic topic, great write up.

 

I also think the DMR could use a shorter clip, and that this would sufficiently see the number of people using it in short to mid range battles drop dramatically, bringing the carbine and the BR back into every 3rd load out.

 

Personally I think weapons like the ar and the suppressor should get a buff.

Then short range DMR would become near on impossible, and would pretty much create 2 battlefields in one, as opposed to the run and gun shambles that sometimes occurs.

 

Top post man, look forward to hearing more from you.

[l Xenoes l]

I never run into a problem using the Carbine. I can kill people pretty quickly even if they're using the DMR or BR. Only time I can't kill someone is when I'm being team shot. It would be nice for it to have a slightly bigger clip though or a faster fire rate.

[Christian.]

Yeah, there's way too much maths for not only myself, but possibly everyone who will read this, to really discuss your modus operandi in much detail with you. Fantastic topic, great write up.

 

I also think the DMR could use a shorter clip, and that this would sufficiently see the number of people using it in short to mid range battles drop dramatically, bringing the carbine and the BR back into every 3rd load out.

 

Personally I think weapons like the ar and the suppressor should get a buff.

Then short range DMR would become near on impossible, and would pretty much create 2 battlefields in one, as opposed to the run and gun shambles that sometimes occurs.

 

Top post man, look forward to hearing more from you.

The AR could definetly use a bigger magizine. It takes a full magizine to kill someone.

[SkItZo1041]

I would like to see the Carbine having a slightly bigger clip, there's plenty of times where I drop the shields and can't get the last shot off because I have to reload.

[ZeroFlame]

The AR could definetly use a bigger magizine. It takes a full magizine to kill someone.

 

That's not always true, but I understand where you're coming from with that. The AR needs 16 shots to connect, leaving another 16 to be misses. Although I find that I can always kill someone within around 20 meters, your accuracy quickly falls after that and missing more than 50% of your shots is a likely possibility. I'd never recommend engaging more than one enemy with the AR - leave that to the Suppressor, or maybe the Storm Rifle if you are alright with a little bit of cool time.

[Jaed'rik Cobalt]

Some of the responses sadden me greatly, all he's using is simple basic math and plain English if you read it. It isn't too difficult to understand the Carbine needs tweaking. Remember that personal experience means absolutely NOTHING when concerning the truth. Great post, and thanks for getting the technical data to a general forum rather than just Den's, and don't give up, Zero, we'll be rooting for and maybe in some cases helping you.

[ShadyNinjaxX]

Yeah, as a carbine specialist (That's my primary weapon I use over all the others) it's really hard for me to keep up with the other people who breeze along using mainly the DMR, but it's hard to keep up with a lot of other weapons. I'll tell you this straight up, and I'm pretty sure you stated it but not in english xD If you come up against a opponent, if you don't do the following: catch them by surprise, and land each one of your shots - you'll lose the fight almost always!

[Buzzsaw]

I love the Covy Carbine, and I absolutely love using it, but there was something that felt off when I used it. I already know the situation with the ammo, but my preferred method would be to make it a 7 shot kill instead of an 8 shot kill.

[Bloody Initiate]

First you should accept that the carbine, the model of the carbine, the concept of the carbine, have all always been destined for second place.

 

The beginning concept of "takes more shots to kill" becomes a deal-breaker, even when you adopt a "kills fastest" model. I don't know how exactly to explain the limits of human concentration because I'm not at all qualified to do so, but the carbine simply demands more concentration than any/all of its peers in all games. There is also the matter of shield percentage per shot, which is just the question of how healthy you are after beating someone in a fair fight. More shots to kill means you're less prepared for the next fight. This has kept it as a second-place weapon forever, even when it lives up to the popular perception that it's the best if you're the best (This is far from true in Halo 4, people just keep thinking it is).

 

If I were to fix the Carbine, I would fix the BR with it. Those two are supposed to be the mid-range kings, so any adjustment to one has to be done with the other in the mind. I've talked plenty about how to fix the BR in other threads, and this thread is about the Carbine.

 

First off, it needs to kill significantly faster if it is to remain an 8-shot kill.

 

If it doesn't remain an 8-shot kill, it must take fewer shots to kill. 7 or 6, as you suggest. The fewer shots you take to kill the slower your kill time becomes as a balancing act. The carbine should always kill faster than the BR, but how much faster? The answer is dependent on how much harder you have to work to kill with a carbine. If you have to shoot someone 8 times to kill them, then the Carbine should be a very fast kill indeed, .15 to .2 seconds faster than a BR.

 

Increasing its clip size is also an option, but you're trying to make room for more shots and that's the wrong direction to go. The more shots it takes to kill with the carbine the more people will avoid that weapon.

 

Another direction you could go, and I think this direction is the most interesting, is make it fully automatic with about the same rate of fire and other stats. This lets a player press the trigger and focus on staying on target, making the weapon unique in several ways. It would be the only fully automatic headshot weapon, easily the most accurate full auto weapon as well as the one with the smallest clip (Still has more kills in its clip than an AR). This slightly counteracts the original difficulty of the carbine, which was focusing for that many more shots.

 

More plausible adjustments to the carbine include:

 

A 10% damage boost, dropping it to a 7-shot kill like the old H2 or H3 Carbine, but killing much faster due to the Halo 4 kill times. This carbine kills much faster than the 5-shot BR, and if the BR is also re-balanced it should still kill slightly faster than the BR (Probably not more than .1 seconds).

 

A higher damage boost coupled with a noticeable reduction in RoF, thus you take 6 shots to kill but have your RoF dropped to keep it from getting out of hand. This Carbine gets 3 kills from its clip, which is more than the 5-shot BR so it should have either an equivalent kill time or one that is faster only slightly. A 6-shot Carbine becomes a better weapon than a 5-shot BR in a lot of ways, so it shouldn't keep a vastly superior kill time.

 

The three things you have to consider when balancing these two weapons out are:

 

Time to Kill

Shots to Kill

Shots in a clip

 

They draw on the following three resources, respectively:

 

Time available to the player - This is added to and subtracted from by other players. They're here to kill you, you have only so much time to kil them first.

 

Focus player can muster - This is important, each shot you take you're more likely to miss the next one. It's how your brain works, it can only do this so long. Furthermore, weapons that take more shots to kill leave players weaker when they lose fights. So if two carbines fight and one dies, the winner is now less prepared to take on another enemy. So in addition to being harder to use, more shots make victories less substantial.

 

Ammo before reload (And presumably death) - In addition to the countdown before your reload, bigger clips forgive more mistakes. It's always good to have a bigger clip, it's always bad not to, so this one is pretty easy to measure in the "good/bad" department. It's a simple binary spectrum. Unfortunately for us 343 wanted us to reload more often, so Halo 4 weapons run out of ammo faster than their predecessors.

 

 

Keep in mind I'm speaking specifically about balancing the BR and the Carbine. Once you bring weapons from other ranges into the mix you add more things to balance. For example it's perfectly OK for the Carbine and the BR to have faster kill times than the DMR (even though they don't) because the DMR has the option to retreat to long range where its vastly superior accuracy will outgun both weapons. It's also perfectly OK for the BR and the Carbine to have slower kill times than automatic weapons (Even though they don't) because once again the BR and the Carbine and strike outside the range of the automatics.

 

Overall I'm fine with the Carbine continuing its tradition of being faster to kill but taking more shots. At the moment it IS faster than the BR but takes too many shots and it still gets owned by a DMR. I agree the Carbine needs a boost, I insist that the BR needs one at the same time, and I might feel good about automatics getting one too. I don't really think it's fair that no one is ever interested in rebalancing those.

[Mainbrid]

That's about 1000 words too many to just say that the carbine sucks

[Bloody Initiate]

We know it sucks, that's why we discuss possible fixes.

[HappehNinja]

Yeah, the Carbine should shine as much as it's brothers. Why have two over-used weapons, when you can have three? Variety wins.

[l Xenoes l]

Yeah, the Carbine should shine as much as it's brothers. Why have two over-used weapons, when you can have three? Variety wins.

 

Doubt 343i even cares that the Carbine is completely flawed and doesn't even compete with the DMR and BR and it's sad. Why bring back an old weapon when it doesn't compete with the other Precision weapons? I don't see this problem being fixed though. There's plenty of other problems with this game that 343i needs to fix and are taking their sweet time doing so.

[Bloody Initiate]

Yeah, the Carbine should shine as much as it's brothers. Why have two over-used weapons, when you can have three? Variety wins.

 

Just so we're clear, the Carbine will never shine as much as the BR or the DMR for a multitude of reasons. The only way it will ever shine as much as them is if it shines much more than them. Basically you'd have to make it as easy to use and effective as the DMR.

 

Why won't it shine? Because as long as it is the Carbine that it has always been (Trading more shots for a faster kill time than the BR) then it just won't catch on, it's genuinely harder to use. It's not "harder to use" like the BR and the DMR are "harder to use" than automatics, it's really harder to use. I don't know this because of any advanced knowledge of the game, I've just been playing since it was introduced (Although I barely got to play Halo 2 on Live), and it's never seen the action of the BR. Part of that is obviously that it was never a starting weapon as much, but when people have the choice they usually don't throw down their BR for a carbine. You don't need two guns that do the same job, especially when they're different enough from each other.

 

Aside from perhaps the focus rifle from Halo Reach, I'm not sure there's been a gun that's harder to use in its intended role than the carbine (Focus Rifle could kill pretty fast at mid-range and was easy to beat a DMR with, but it was INTENDED for long range, and that was laughable). Keeping your reticule consistently glued to someone that long is just plain harder. It's not even a matter of "if you're good, it's the best" as the popular myth of the carbine states, it's just harder to use.

 

Hard to use = unpopular, even in skilled hands. Skilled players know they need a forgiving weapon when they make mistakes. They can make lesser weapons go a lot farther than average players like me, but they won't prefer it. There's a few people who might recall how awesome they were with the carbine in Halo 2, and even Halo 3, but it's a very few.

 

I think the "3" variety rifles will be the DMR, the BR, and the Light Rifle.

 

I would prefer the carbine had a place and became an excellent weapon, but as long as its model is "More shots" then it's never going to end up on top.

[l Xenoes l]

Just so we're clear, the Carbine will never shine as much as the BR or the DMR for a multitude of reasons. The only way it will ever shine as much as them is if it shines much more than them. Basically you'd have to make it as easy to use and effective as the DMR.

 

Why won't it shine? Because as long as it is the Carbine that it has always been (Trading more shots for a faster kill time than the BR) then it just won't catch on, it's genuinely harder to use. It's not "harder to use" like the BR and the DMR are "harder to use" than automatics, it's really harder to use. I don't know this because of any advanced knowledge of the game, I've just been playing since it was introduced (Although I barely got to play Halo 2 on Live), and it's never seen the action of the BR. Part of that is obviously that it was never a starting weapon as much, but when people have the choice they usually don't throw down their BR for a carbine. You don't need two guns that do the same job, especially when they're different enough from each other.

 

Aside from perhaps the focus rifle from Halo Reach, I'm not sure there's been a gun that's harder to use in its intended role than the carbine (Focus Rifle could kill pretty fast at mid-range and was easy to beat a DMR with, but it was INTENDED for long range, and that was laughable). Keeping your reticule consistently glued to someone that long is just plain harder. It's not even a matter of "if you're good, it's the best" as the popular myth of the carbine states, it's just harder to use.

 

Hard to use = unpopular, even in skilled hands. Skilled players know they need a forgiving weapon when they make mistakes. They can make lesser weapons go a lot farther than average players like me, but they won't prefer it. There's a few people who might recall how awesome they were with the carbine in Halo 2, and even Halo 3, but it's a very few.

 

I think the "3" variety rifles will be the DMR, the BR, and the Light Rifle.

 

I would prefer the carbine had a place and became an excellent weapon, but as long as its model is "More shots" then it's never going to end up on top.

 

I agree with everything you have said. The Carbine is harder to use compared to the BR/DMR so people will shy away from it. I only just started to use the Light Rifle a lot more often to mix things up and to break the monotony.

 

The main problem with the Carbine is it's lack of power compared to the other Rifles. Yeah the faster fire rate can help but, if you don't put enough shots into the head then you're SOL. I think the only way for it to be on par with the others is for the fire rate to slow down a bit and for it to get more power or same fire rate and slightly more power.

[Cpt Picardo]

Very well written topic! And I'm sure all your stats are true. But as a guy said in many words above, the carbine is not supposed to be as good as the DMR or even the BR. The human weapons is the best because humans are better then the elites. War games is spartans training program. The covenant weapons are there to use as part of the training but they aren't as good as the unsc weapons simply because they aren't as good! Thats why the spartans always win

[l Xenoes l]

Very well written topic! And I'm sure all your stats are true. But as a guy said in many words above, the carbine is not supposed to be as good as the DMR or even the BR. The human weapons is the best because humans are better then the elites. War games is spartans training program. The covenant weapons are there to use as part of the training but they aren't as good as the unsc weapons simply because they aren't as good! Thats why the spartans always win

 

I'm sure this was meant to be a joke but, I now feel dumber for having read this.

[ProudDrunkIrish]

If your a skilled player, does it really matter what gun you use?

 

Firstly I have to say I hate comments like this when someone has put so much time into a thread..

 

Secondly I have to agree in general with the carbine being beneath the other 2 guns in general, now some people will prefer it for whatever reason as many prefer the BR, but that is more a favouritism issue than an actual ability issue,

 

Skill has little to do with it, the carbines fire rate is its main advantage, it will scare less knowledgable players and cause them to miss or retreat when they should not, also it will keep an enemies scope thrown off more consistantly in a long range battle.

 

All of these things are fine if the perfect situation arises but in general using a carbine against an equally skilled player using a DMR you are often on the losing side.

 

The solution of clip size is a good one if due to nothing else but fire rate, increasing its damage would make it better than the BR and closer to the DMR but that is not necessarily a good thing. One could make the DMR worse and that would lvl the playing field overall, say decrease fire rate and then all would be closer together..

 

Once again good post and keep it coming,.

[Bloody Initiate]

All of these things are fine if the perfect situation arises but in general using a carbine against an equally skilled player using a DMR you are often on the losing side.

 

I actually killed a carbine guy the other day specifically because he had a carbine. I think my shield was a bit weakened and I was about to dive for cover when I realized the guy had a carbine, so I just stepped out and killed him. I wasn't really afraid of anyone who had to land 8 shots to my 5.

 

People underestimate the influence of confidence on gameplay. Blue team on Exile, for example, will often swarm red team hard doing a lot of damage just because they know they've got the Gauss behind them. The Gauss won't even be in the fight, and blue team will just overwhelm red team because they're confident about their odds. A sad underdog will read that and think "OVERconfident, heheheh!" but really the amount of times confidence gets you killed is probably significantly lower than the amount of times it gets you kills. Sometimes you get underestimated and shove it in their faces, but a lot of times a bunch of confident players turn into a teamshotting swarm.

[Cpt Picardo]

 

 

I'm sure this was meant to be a joke but, I now feel dumber for having read this.

 

No it was not meant as a joke i was merely stating the obvious..

[ProudDrunkIrish]

@Bloody^^^ Could not have put it better myself, I know I mentioned the carbine being good against noobs and I should have just said its a confindence thing. I am the same I never really fear a carbine and win where I would have lost to a DMR.

 

I like the Exile example, its amazing how many times red team are unsure what the best course of action is as there is chance of the gauss annihalating you, hell I go for banshee when red and am amazed how many times I get killed by a parked gauss after getting it only to find my team shyed away from going for the tank!!!

 

Confidence in this game is king to many hang back afraid and guess what they often lose as a result..