Call of Halo - breaking down how 343 copied...

[FleshBack]

6 second shield recharge delay just means I need to camp even more with a DMR since aggressive play-styles are punished by the increased shield delay ( It used to be 4 seconds in other games) making going on sprees Rambo style (a trademark of the series) is almost impossible.

 

I see this a lot when people discuss things they miss about the older games. They miss being able to just wreck people unopposed. I would attribute that to the 6 second shield delay AND the lower skill gap in this game compared to others. In 2 and 3 the skill gap was higher so good players could just dominate while people on the lower end were just pulverized. And really, why shouldn't you? You put the time in to get better and more skillful at the game, so why shouldn't you be able to destroy people who haven't?

 

In this game between the DMR magical aim assist rifle, BoltSholt, sprint, instant respawn, and ordinance, the skill gap has been dramatically lowered favoring casuals more and punishing those that used to rely on the higher skill gap to pull off their streaks. Maybe that was intentional on 343's part. Maybe they don't want people to be "Gods" at Halo anymore and are trying to be like Prometheus and give fire to the masses. We already have a game out in the market that plays like that (CoD), and Halo didn't need to be like that. I won't go so far as to say that those on the lower end of the skill gap were the ones wanting these changes in Halo. Or if they did they were unaware that the skill gap would decrease due to seemingly "harmless" additions like sprint.

 

Once you think about this it only makes sense why the competitive Halo scene has shrunk in this game. This game is so uncompetitive because of the lower skill gap that the only way to rememdy it is to butcher the settings to something that barely resembles how regular matchmaking is played. And really, if you have to work against the game so hard just to make some decent MLG settings, chances are the game isn't really MLG material. And I use MLG in a broad sense, not in discussing the league but the competitive scene in general.

 

Well, given all that I can only draw the conclusion that shooters such as Halo 2 and 3 are considered archaic relics in the gaming industry and the magic that was there is now dead and gone. I highly doubt 343 is going to totally go back on all the work they did to make Halo 4 and say, "Well, we screwed up!" and come out and make a Halo 5 that is like the older games. No. They will probably keep what they have now and probably work a little harder on balancing issues and not Laing the same mistakes they did with 4, like not having File Share up and running to begin with.

[Twinreaper]

I see this a lot when people discuss things they miss about the older games. They miss being able to just wreck people unopposed. I would attribute that to the 6 second shield delay AND the lower skill gap in this game compared to others. In 2 and 3 the skill gap was higher so good players could just dominate while people on the lower end were just pulverized. And really, why shouldn't you? You put the time in to get better and more skillful at the game, so why shouldn't you be able to destroy people who haven't?

 

In this game between the DMR magical aim assist rifle, BoltSholt, sprint, instant respawn, and ordinance, the skill gap has been dramatically lowered favoring casuals more and punishing those that used to rely on the higher skill gap to pull off their streaks. Maybe that was intentional on 343's part. Maybe they don't want people to be "Gods" at Halo anymore and are trying to be like Prometheus and give fire to the masses. I for one dislike it as we already have a game out in the market that plays like that (CoD), and Halo didn't need to be like that. I won't go so far as to say that those on the lower end of the skill gap were the ones wanting these changes in Halo. Or if they did they were unaware that the skill gap would decrease due to seemingly "harmless" additions like sprint.

 

First off, Halo 2 and 3 did not require a greater amount skill. Saying any game requires more skill than the next, is simply an illusion on your part. I was mediocre at Halo 2, and a little better in Halo 3. Most of the time I just didn't play because a lot of players played sooo much that their whole life revolved around the "I'm a Halo God" mindset. seriously...who wants to jump into MM with absolutely zero chance of getting even 3 kills.....then listen to the "Gods" (kids) ***** about how much you suck. Your point on the destroying people in older games is null, and is a skewed point of view only.

 

And enough with comparing it to CoD. Do you even know anything about video games, or where these game add-ons even came from? CoD is not the game that forced Halo, nor influenced Halo to incorporate them. I thought I made that quite clear witha quick breakdown of how Halo, Crysis and CoD evolved in my latter post. 343 did not make Spartans move slower in Halo 4, than in previous titles either. The movement speed is exactly the same as it always has been. And what's with your "magical aim assist" comment? Have you never heard of the "magnetism" and "aim assist" fields in a weapon tag? They have been there since day one with Halo CE. Maybe you just didn't pay enough attention, since you destroyed others most of the time, but now that your getting your *** handed too....you need something to blame other than your lack of overall skill?

[FleshBack]

Of course older games had aim assist and magnetism. Where did I ever say in my post, "All other Halo games besides Halo 4 don't have Aim Assist and bullet Magnetism". You should really try and quote me saying that. I would love to see what you find. In fact, you won't because I never did say that anywhere in my post. What? I can't word something a certain way without someone trying to twist my words just so they can make an argument where there isn't one?

 

And smh @ you just "supposing" I was wrecking in the early days of Halo. It was quite the opposite really. You had to put in the time to get really good at the game and I never did. Also, I played more Star Wars Battlefront at the time. THOSE were the days.... But I am not butthurt about it. You're just so... Presumptuous. You think you can gather a life story from a few posts on a forum.

 

I wouldn't try to make rash generalizations about you an your lifestyle based off some of your posts, but I guess it is a mistake to extend that kind of credit to others on the Internet. Keep your cynical, condescending Judgements to yourself because no one needs them.

 

To be honest, those (God) kids had every right to destroy you. They put in the time and yoeu didn't. And if you have that much resentment over it that you feel the need to disparage hardcore gamers like that, well you must've been very frustrated whenever you put the disc in the console, what can I say lol? I was probably no better than you, but if someone beats me I will admit they deserve the win. They probably wanted it more and put more work into it than I. It is like playing the guitar, there are no shortcuts to get better. You have to put in the time, effort, and energy to improve. But most of all you have to have the drive to get better.

[ProudDrunkIrish]

This thread is still going lol, I love how we are now onto the skill lvl haha.

 

In past Halo games you won because you and your team were better, you could assault multiple enemies and beat them if you were good enough, it was a game where skill and aggression won, there is nothing wrong with that especially as it had a ranking system that was designed towards skill.

 

Halo 4 does not require as much skill as say Halo 3 did, it is not even comparable, sure some map knowledge and slightly improved strafing will keep you alive 1 on 1 but its designed for you to die. The whole map control ideology is gone out the window, we now have camp with a DMR and stick on ordinance priority, this way you can get better weapons than the enemy that advances and is better than you (hooray a lesser team can win)

 

As fleshback has stated the additions have changed the core of the game we loved, its a new game with an old name thats just a fact of life now. I used to enjoy battering teams in H3 but also got my *** handed many a time and I never blamed the game just myself.

 

Oh well I suppose they should change all sports so that I can beat the best even if I am no good at them!!!!!!!!

[rush0024]

Round and round in circles we go. One word can sum up Halo 4 and what this thread is all about. CASUAL. This game is made to suit the casual gamer, just like in CoD. Everything about skill that Flesh and Irish is saying is 100 percent spot on. In Halo 2, if you did not put in the time to get better, and/or you did not have a good team... you were going to lose. Not only lose but get destroyed. This turned off a lot of casual gamers to the point them complaining or quitting. This is why the changes were made. To appeal more to the casual gamer, because thats the market and it results in more $$$. It was a buisness decision.That's reality and if you can't see that than your blind.

[Twinreaper]

I agree wholeheartedly. But what I do not agree with is how jaded and arogant everyone comes off about it. You dont like casuals....fair enough. But dont go off stating how we casuals are the ones always whining about wanting change. Thats not an area anyone is qualified enough to speak to with any degree of truth or fact besides the publisher and developer. On a side note....which end of the gaming spectrum do you think brings in the most chunk of sales? As stated previous, casuals is a $$ maker.

 

Love us or hate us, a game needs all genres of gamers in order to make sales. That being said, it is not easy for q developer to clearly make a marginal game that appeals to everyone. So please, do not blame certain types of gamers for the quality of product we get. Save that directly aimed hate for the ones who make the ultimate decisions.

[NhraRacer]

WOW! My second and last post. This is a great game and to stay here and listen to the moan and groan of the people on this site will ruin the expereince. If you people hate it that much, don't play it. Get over it.

[MCPO Mayh3m]

I agree wholeheartedly. But what I do not agree with is how jaded and arogant everyone comes off about it. You dont like casuals....fair enough. But dont go off stating how we casuals are the ones always whining about wanting change. Thats not an area anyone is qualified enough to speak to with any degree of truth or fact besides the publisher and developer. On a side note....which end of the gaming spectrum do you think brings in the most chunk of sales? As stated previous, casuals is a $$ maker.

 

Love us or hate us, a game needs all genres of gamers in order to make sales. That being said, it is not easy for q developer to clearly make a marginal game that appeals to everyone. So please, do not blame certain types of gamers for the quality of product we get. Save that directly aimed hate for the ones who make the ultimate decisions.

 

Bingo. I couldn't agree more.

 

I use to be a big competitive gamer in Halo 3, and still am to an extent... but not nearly as much. I lean more to the causal gaming now and playing to enjoy the game. I buy games mainly for how fun they are. One thing I stated early before the release of Halo 4 is that 343 had to appeal to the casual, and the competitive gamer. And like you said.. it isn't and wasn't easy. They are just now getting around to the competitive playlists and team doubles that people have been asking for.

 

You stated before that Bungie had 3 games to make a great series. I think it is the same with 343. I think they had their first game to test the waters of what worked.. and now they can take the feedback, take what worked, and build the next game to make it that much better.

[FleshBack]

I think 343 could have done a better making both casuals and competitive players happy. Hopefully whatever data or input they are getting out of Halo 4 will go into making Halo 5 the best of both worlds. I realize it is easier said than done, but it would be nice to see an effort. I have nothing against Competitives or casuals, everyone has the right to play the game they want. But when you make a game that caters more towards one demographic, you create a polarized community an that isn't good for any game.

[ProudDrunkIrish]

Round and round in circles we go. One word can sum up Halo 4 and what this thread is all about. CASUAL. This game is made to suit the casual gamer, just like in CoD. Everything about skill that Flesh and Irish is saying is 100 percent spot on. In Halo 2, if you did not put in the time to get better, and/or you did not have a good team... you were going to lose. Not only lose but get destroyed. This turned off a lot of casual gamers to the point them complaining or quitting. This is why the changes were made. To appeal more to the casual gamer, because thats the market and it results in more $$$. It was a buisness decision.That's reality and if you can't see that than your blind.

 

Your logic is undeniable, I guess I am living in the past a bit and considering my life has moved on and I have less time for games maybe this was the best change for me aswell, to be honest a lot of features added to this game could have worked out very different, take ordinance for example, I mean who thought more power weapons would mean more camping? In my mind pre playing that seemed like more madness and mayhem.

 

Fleshback is right all things could have been done better, but then they will be making Halo 5 so who knows maybe there they will find the right mix.

 

Time for me to sign off on this thread...

 

Have a good time gaming everyone

[Bloody Initiate]

Love us or hate us, a game needs all genres of gamers in order to make sales. That being said, it is not easy for q developer to clearly make a marginal game that appeals to everyone. So please, do not blame certain types of gamers for the quality of product we get. Save that directly aimed hate for the ones who make the ultimate decisions.

 

I'm with you here. I've never seen Halo 4's weakness as a difference in gamers or a result of one faction's whining.

 

Although I WILL say the community's widespread ignorance fueled a lot of bad complaints, and some of those bad complaints were addressed to the detriment of the game. It wasn't "casuals" or "competitive players" though, it was people who weren't thinking because of any number of reasons (they were too angry at the time of their decisions to make good ones, still see this regularly, they were ignorant of facts, or they were just plain stupid people, plenty of those in any large community).

 

My hate has always been aimed at the decision-makers.

 

 

As for the skill-gap arguments, there's something else there that people keep missing. I was firmly above average at Halo 3, and I'm not angry about Halo 4 because I don't get to pulverize n00bs. I didn't get to pulverize noobs in Halo 3 in the first place. I got placed at my Trueskill level and fought people who were close to my skill level, and I didn't make new accounts. What people are missing when they talk about the skill gap being gone is the fact that it actually got bigger in ways that are very difficult to understand and explain. MLG players in Halo 3 might have a K/D slightly above 2.0. A player of that level in Halo Reach and Halo 4 would have a much higher K/D, frequently 3s, 4s, and 5s.

 

I THINK it's easier to understand the shift in skill gap thusly:

 

Being a good player requires a lot of different characteristics. When you're improving your characteristics (With practice, experience, research) it's easier if you're also talented at that particular characteristic (The people who play this game professionally began with a lot of talent and honed it with a lot of practice and such).

 

Halo 4 diminishes the value of some of these characteristics, but increases the value of others. The ones required for the highest level of play were largely left alone in Halo 4's new features. The best players are all excellent team players, for example, they have to be. Teamwork and communication are both characteristics that you can have a talent for and that you can practice.

 

One thing Halo 4 left largely alone was teamwork, even though it does diminish the ease of teamwork with lesser team indicators (The ol' Red X makes no appearance in halo 4). The brunt of teamwork and communication are things you bring to the game, not things already present and available. Highly accurate hitscan guns that lead the pack in kill times are something the game gives you, but the game can't make you talk to your team or move with them. The game can make it easier, but not make you do it.

 

So players like me whose primary practice came from searching alone and going it alone aren't really any good at Halo 4, but players who spent a lot of energy developing their team skills and communication excel even more at this game than they did in games like Halo 3.

 

Halo 4 only lowers the skill gap in a few places, it actually increases the skill gap in others. It decreases the skill gap in 1v1 fights, and especially decreases it in 1v1 fights after one of the combatants has had a fight, but it made teamwork harder. So players with THOSE skills suddenly shine even more. Also since teamwork was always a HUGE contributor to success anyway, suddenly those players gain a huge edge. It also increases the skill gap in terms of survival instinct. Players who spend a lot of energy preserving themselves and being careful gain more from it in this game than they did in other games. You could be careful in Halo 3, but a lot of the time you could be too careful and miss the best opportunities in the game.

 

One thing Halo 4 seems to do with the skill gap is decrease the reward for risk. The fewer risks you take, the more you are rewarded. Previously you needed to take risks to gain rewards, now you take as few as possible and excel for it. I'm not arguing for one over the other (Taking fewer risks feels like it should be rewarded, as does taking certain risks), just noting how players who are careful in all aspects gain more of an edge than previously.

 

The point is Halo 4 didn't lower or raise the skill gap so much as it just relocated it. Different skills gained additional importance, others lost a lot of importance. It's always important to be accurate, for example, but not as important in a game where the weapons are simply easier to use. High accuracy grants a slighter edge than before. It wasn't absolutely necessary to have a teammate nearby in other games, it's almost unforgivable not to in Halo 4.

 

How is this related to the topic? Well it's mostly me responding to other posts, see my post on the bottom of page 6 for much more topic focus. This one is long enough.

[rush0024]

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What he said

[Flippant Sol]

This post is so long, I might as well post the entire story of TUNSELOUS NAW. Just Kidding, Just Saying.

[Connor Mynors]

i agree halo 4 seems to be like cod and the halo games are becoming more and more like cod, but im not a cod fan at all and even i know this.

i wish halo would go back to halo 3 type days... those days are over

[Twinreaper]

And even if we got Halo 3 gameplay back, there would just be another round of bitching about that. Look at Reach. Everyone complained that they wanted the bloom of Halo's past, and then they got it. Then guess what?......more bitching. Reverting back to a previous Halo is not going to please or fix anything. The only thing it will do is please and satisfy a select few groups inside the 'Whole" community.

 

Reverting is never the answer, but rather a very good compromise on all fronts. Like I said, you can't just expect Halo to satisfy you, it has to be a cooperative effort of push and shove to get an overall formula that will please enough of the player base. By saying to revert back, or make things more competitive, you in a way are alienating other players. Tolerance is something the player base still lacks very much here... I'm not saying things need to change, but I would not facilitate a change that alienates anyone either.

[HappehNinja]

[OutGunnd]

343 Catered the game for COD fanboys, but they didn't show up now we are left with a silly COD clone... That no one wants to play. Flawed concepts that do not work in Halo.

Edited February 3, 2013 by DocSpartanO07
Posted in all caps and edited for content

[Twinreaper]

Another flame response with no proof, no real substance and no point. Enough with these silly posts. if you can't argue something logically or with any real substance...just don't post. It makes it that much harder for members to shift thru the rest of the garbage to find relevant material.

[DoctorB77]

343 Catered the game for COD fanboys, but they didn't show up now we are left with a silly COD clone... That no one wants to play. Flawed concepts that do not work in Halo.

 

Yes. 343i said wanted to remove all of the halo fans and get COD fans in. That is their whole "scheme for money" right? You guys have to realize how different these to games still are despite some new additions to the game that bring in a few similarities. This is like if Minecraft all of sudden had a craftable gun. Then people saying that they are taking ideas from call of duty.

 

As TwinReaper said before

" no proof, no real substance and no point"

[rush0024]

The logic has been thoroughly explained and discussed over and over again by me and others in this thread and it should be very clear at this point. This thread has had a good run but there's really nothing left to talk about. Maybe I will see you all around when Halo 5 comes out. And that's a very big maybe.

[HappehNinja]

Yes. 343i said wanted to remove all of the halo fans and get COD fans in. That is their whole "scheme for money" right? You guys have to realize how different these to games still are despite some new additions to the game that bring in a few similarities. This is like if Minecraft all of sudden had a craftable gun. Then people saying that they are taking ideas from call of duty.

 

As TwinReaper said before

" no proof, no real substance and no point"

 

Well said, Doctor. Well said.

[TornadoFlame]

Yes. 343i said wanted to remove all of the halo fans and get COD fans in. That is their whole "scheme for money" right? You guys have to realize how different these to games still are despite some new additions to the game that bring in a few similarities. This is like if Minecraft all of sudden had a craftable gun. Then people saying that they are taking ideas from call of duty.

 

As TwinReaper said before

" no proof, no real substance and no point"

they wanted to try to pull the halo fans who orginaly went to cod while attempting to keep there game in the core of halo Now me i don't feel its halo and not just cause of silly perks and loadouts. I think had this game been delayed a year and they catered to both gamers and not one we would not be having this issue because if you wanna have fun with the perks and stuff you can enjoy infinity slayer if you want old school competitive halo you could go there. just a rush game.

Edited February 4, 2013 by TornadoFlame

[ProudDrunkIrish]

I have to say on page 8 this topic has reached its end, the points have been made and discussed in great detail.

I believe we have discussed the similarities with CoD and other games, and we have mentioned the loss of traditional and sometimes defining Halo features.

I do not think anyone is really saying this is CoD, but rather that it has become a lot more like CoD and lost a lot of what made Halo great. I mean we can all see that we are still blue and red spartans running around and to some people thats Halo no matter what else they change.

I for one play the game still and even enjoy it, I just find myself putting it into the console less than previous Halo games and playing less hrs. when I do.

 

Maybe its time to close this thread as apart from the same people making the same arguments I cannot see anyone reading through all of it and thus being able to find the few posts that mean anything.

 

It appears the Trolls did their work and made bits of a decent discussion.

 

Oh and have to agree with Tornado this was a rushed and unfinished game which might be the biggest dissapointment of all..

[Destroyaaa]

This game did take a lot from COD, but not all of it is bad. Just because its from COD doesn't mean its bad, if you actually analyze each of the things you described you can find some good things out of it. For the most part I think this game is bad but I am just trying to be objective.

[Jack Of Harts]

What about games like Battlefield? Custom loadouts, killcams, perks (specializations, like ammo, sprint, etc.), join-in progress, no skill-based rank, weapon unlocks through progression, sprinting, no friendly fire, starts even with unbalanced teams, etc.  are you going to tell me that Battlefield copied CoD as well?

Also, are you seriously going to tell me that a game that has sprinting copied Call of Duty? Better watch out, Mario, the feds are coming for ya! CoD has copied things from halo in the past as well, like theatre, the currency system (CoD points copied credits from Reach) Survival (copied Firefight, and Zombies was much better anyway), Infected, etc. Also, overkill didn't exist until Black Ops 2 and that came out AFTER Halo 4, so technically, CoD copied that from Halo. You're just a blind Bungie fanboy who thinks everything they did was absolutely perfect and can't stand the fact that another company is making the games, so you blindly hate on the company and their games.