Meeeko Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Really sorry guys, but this is an extremely lengthy read, but it is extremely informative and a great read, would really appreciate it if you guys read it all and posted your opinions on the matters being rectified by MLG Thanks! A Solution to the MLG Settings debate How we should be approaching the settings, and a compromise that can please everyone. __________________________________________________ _________________ by Kambo & K2Five, with help from Menotyou The Idea That Sparked It All MLG became popular, especially in Halo 2 because it took what was in Matchmaking and fixed the annoyances, such as radar and spawning with an SMG. Players would go into Team Hardcore or MLG customs because it was a place to play the game without being hindered by radar, and they could spawn with a chance to fight back (spawn with a BR, not the SMG). MLG fixed other annoyances in Matchmaking such as removing bad maps and gametypes. Many casual players got into MLG not because they were competitive, but because it was Halo with the crap removed, it was Halo: Fixed. When broken and annoying parts of a game are fixed, it inherently becomes competitive. It is simple cause and effect. Right now we are doing it backwards; we are focusing on the effect (competitive value), instead of focusing on the cause which makes it competitive (fixing issues). The idea is to use the same process that MLG used in its formative years; MLG needs to once again make objective decisions without bias or subjectivity in order to fix Halo, this will allow the game to be competitive and will give us the best overall settings possible. The Current Issue Everyone has gotten too deep, everyone has their idea of what competitive gametypes should be, and fair enough; these players have a lot of experience and good ideas. However a lot of players are getting tunnel vision and are only focusing on their idea of what's good, not on the Halo community as a whole. Currently there are three ‘camps’. There is the Pro-DMR camp consisting of players that can see the benefits of an accurate and effective starting weapon, they have good ideas and fair arguments to support their suggestions. Then there is the Anti-DMR (Pro-BR) camp consisting of players that can see the benefits in gameplay which requires intelligent map movement due to starting with a gun that has limited range. They also have good ideas and fair arguments to support their suggestions. Finally there is the casual camp. This camp is by far the largest of all and without it MLG wouldn’t exist. The point of interest here is their want for an enjoyable playlist. MLG’s playlist needs to be one that at least some of them can enjoy, for the sake of MLG’s growth. The issue we have is that the competitive community is split; with the DMR vs BR debate which is overshadowing the importance of casual appeal. There is such a thing as player turnover; players grow up and move on from competitive gaming and without new people replacing them the MLG Halo population will shrink. Even if players aren’t leaving we can hardly thrive without a steady income of fresh players. We are also currently ignoring what made MLG settings so good in the first place; the idea that MLG should be Halo: Fixed. Halo: Fixed We based this on the marketing barrier principle: “There needs to be as little barriers to the customer as possible.” In this context, it means both competitive and casual players need to have any barriers removed for them in order to play MLG gametypes. For example if MLG is super competitive but alien compared to default settings, it creates a barrier to entry for casuals (see MLG Reach v7, with an abundance of forged maps as well as bloom and sprint removed). Likewise if MLG is imbalanced or too casual, it creates a barrier to entry for competitive players (see default Matchmaking playlists). The barriers need to be down for both in turn for MLG to thrive, yes it is almost impossible to fully lower them for both parties, but where possible we should lower any barriers we can. We need to tackle this the same way MLG initially tackled Halo; take the default version of the game and fix the annoyances. That’s it. We cannot try to force it to be a CE v2, a H2 v2, a H3 v2 or even a Reach V2. Instead we need to allow Halo 4 to be a competitive version of itself. That is the goal. To do so we need to start with default Matchmaking and fix any annoyances it may or may not have. There are many problems with this game but below are the seven most common annoyances/problems with default Halo 4: Radar. Just like any other Halo game, radar stifles gameplay. It restricts movement and forces people to camp and crouch instead of run and gun. Ordnance randomness. It is extremely imbalanced. No one likes it when they get a Concussion Rifle in their personal ordnance and their opponent gets Rockets. Random world ordnance is also highly frustrating when it doesn’t go your way. Running out of ammo. There are no weapons on map, and dropped weapons despawn after 12 seconds instead of 45. This makes ammo very scarce which can be hugely frustrating. Limited pickups. Without consistent power weapons spawning on the map players have no direction. Desired pickups are needed to serve as the objective in Team Slayer games, as well as to break stalemates and any monotony an objective gametype may have. Instant respawn. Getting killed by the guy you just killed before your shield recharges sucks. Instant respawn also ruins gametypes such as King of the Hill and Oddball because kills and deaths, the core of Halo, do not matter. It destroys the integrity and intelligence of these gametypes which is becoming more apparent to players in those playlists. Loadouts are imbalanced. Players who use the Promethean Vision plus Boltshot combo are at a huge advantage over players who chose something like Autosentry plus Magnum. Then there are the Tactical Packages and Support Upgrades which are also slightly imbalanced and getting plasma grenades (a 1-hit-kill ‘nade with sticking capability) off spawn seems a bit excessive on top of two weapons and three types of abilities. DMR is overpowered. No matter what camp you are in, we can all agree that the DMR is a step above the rest; it has the fastest kill time, 3x zoom, the furthest aim assist distance and awesome consistency (Bullet magnetism mitigates the effect of bloom). The other three rifles (BR, Carbine & LR) are what we collectively call the ‘medium-ranged rifles’. All four utility rifles are very balanced with the exception of the DMR; it stands above the rest as we will explain below. If you do not need to be convinced then skip the next paragraph. The BR has the fastest kill-time and is fairly easy to use, the Carbine is identical except with a slightly faster kill-time balanced by being harder to use. The Light Rifle is the same except with a slightly slower kill-time, 3x zoom and the 4sk function. The 4sk function deals the least flinch of all four rifles which helps to balance it, and a lot of players also report that they find it harder to aim than the BR. Here are some links to tests done to determine and compare certain characteristics of each rifle to help get an idea of the relative power of each: Aim Assist Distance http://www.halocouncil.com/community...h/#entry211710 Flinch and Aim Assist amounts http://www.halocouncil.com/community...g/#entry213396 Weapon Kill Times These tests prove the DMR’s power, and if you are a person who says ‘yeah but what about in a real life situation’, just look at the first Halo 4 event. MLG Dallas had 99% of players using the DMR, and for good reason. Fixing these 7 will allow the game to become competitively viable as it will lower all of the barriers to entry for competitive players. We need to focus on fixing these 7 in such as way that keeps the game feeling default as to lower as many casual barriers as possible. Why? Because at this point the competitive barriers are already gone, the only barriers left are casual ones and as we know the fewer barriers you have, the more access customers have. That is how MLG Halo is going to be brought back to life. Removing Radar, or not? For issue #1 the radar itself isn’t the problem, it’s the information about enemy players which stifles gameplay, so we only removed the enemy locations from radar instead of the radar itself. This was an objective decision based off the problem and the options available to us, instead of being a subjective change based off of changes in previous Halo games, eg. we didn’t just automatically remove the Radar because “that’s what we always do”. Keeping it means new players won’t feel off by the absence of the radar when entering MLG which is good for player retention. Some players will straight up leave a competitive playlist or custom game for something as small as the radar being removed, before giving everything else a chance. If we can reduce the incidence rate of that happening then it will help MLG to grow. Keeping the radar with ally player locations also doubles for somewhat addressing the limited ally nav point issue (the directional nav points for allies off-screen do not exist in this game). Being able to tell where allies are is important and keeping radar for ally locations can help this. To further address this problem, we added Awareness as the Support Upgrade. Tactical Packages and Support Upgrades There is much support for Dexterity as the Support Upgrade, and also a fair amount for Explosives. Here is why we chose neither: The support for Dexterity from competitive players is not unanimous, and arguing whether or not it should be in competitive play is the same as arguing whether or not we should start with DMRs or not; both camps have fair points and both camps are hard-headed, so trying to convince either is pointless. Instead we need to go back to basics; is normal reloading a problem in Matchmaking? No, it is not. Therefore Dexterity is not needed. The support for Explosives is also not unanimous. There are fair points brought up from either either camp, but the deciding factor is keeping the game feeling like Halo 4. If players jump into an MLG playlist and keep dying from grenades they normally wouldn’t have, that is going to annoy them. Using Explosives isn’t fixing an annoyance, it's adding one. Awareness on the other hand works to address an annoyance without adding one. Finally Resupply is the obvious choice for Tactical Packages so no need to discuss that. We feel like this doesn’t need to be said, but for the sake of documenting the fix to issue #7 we have not allowed customizable loadouts. This means players cannot choose what Armor Ability, Tactical Package or Support Upgrade they want. Instead they ‘get what they are given’. This may serve to annoy a lot of casuals but its the one thing the entire competitive community can agree on. The BR vs DMR solution The next group of changes addresses four issues: “Ordnance randomness” “DMR is overpowered” “Running out of ammo” “Instant respawn” We removed the DMR from loadouts and instead placed them on map and in personal ordnance drops. This means players can loadout with any of the medium-ranged rifles (BR, Carbine or Light Rifle) and then can earn the use of a DMR, if they want to. This is the perfect compromise between the Pro-DMR and the Anti-DMR camp; the Pro-DMR guys can easily obtain a DMR, and the Anti-DMR guys don’t have to worry about everyone spawning with an overpowered rifle. They get their map movement and can loadout with BRs. Each camp will still have their issues, the Pro-DMR camp will still be shaking their heads that we aren’t starting with a consistent and effective rifle, and the Anti-DMR camp will be still be complaining that the DMR is in the game. But it is foolhardy to try and convince one another, instead we must work together. Both camps are large and are very important for competitive Halo, so we cannot alienate either of them by making an absolute decision. This change is also intuitive; start with a normal rifle and work your way to a slightly stronger one. It also means that each rifle gets even use and allows for a higher skill gap as multi-rifle use is required and encouraged. You cannot simply just use the BR the whole game, you cannot simply use the DMR the whole game, you have to be flexible which adds variety and skill to the game, not to mention fun and that all-important spectator experience. If we were to use one rifle only, MLG would be very monotonous. Casuals wouldn’t like that, and a lot of hardcore competitive players wouldn’t either. The Assault Rifle The Assault Rifle is also available in loadouts, this again is to appeal to casuals. Having an AR, an ordnance meter to fill up and what they think is a radar, give them a lot of comfort in an otherwise frightening experience. In time they will learn in time that the AR isn’t the best choice, but then again, sometimes it can be. 343 was right when they said putting the AR in Slayer Pro provides an interesting dynamic “Yeah most of the time players will choose the BR or DMR, but every so often someone will choose the AR then get a flank and catch you off guard.” It is so true, and it adds the perfect risk and reward metagame to loadouts. A player can choose the AR, knowing he is limited and that it could lead to an early death due to everyone else having medium to long-ranged rifles. But if he plays it smart he may get a good flank and a kill out of it, he can then grab the dead opponent’s weapon and proceed to rifle people afar, while maintaining a CQC advantage due to the work he put in, and the risk he took at the start of his life. He could also stay low and find a DMR placed on map, or get a few kills and earn an ordnance. Another option is to earn an ordnance with a medium-ranged rifle, hold onto that ordnance until you die then respawn with an AR and call in a DMR immediately using the previously-earned personal ordnance. The AR not only caters to casuals, but also adds a very interesting and tactical dynamic to loadouts which arguably raises the skill gap, with the bonus of breaking monotony. The Magnum We removed the the Magnum as a secondary weapon because it you look at the “Weapon Kill Times” video that we linked above, you will see that it actually has the fastest kill-time out of all of the loadout weapons. It also has the biggest bloom in the game which makes it function worse than the pre-patch bloom-DMR in Reach. These two factors make the gun the ultimate chance cannon; spam and kill the guy before he can get his 4th shot off, or miss every bullet after the first shot. Something this random hurts the competitive value of the game too much to stay in, even if the removal does annoy a few casuals. Personal Ordnance Details Each personal ordnance contains: Left: BR/Carbine/Light Rifle Middle: DMR Right: Plasma Grenades/Pulse Grenades This means every time you get an ordnance you can upgrade to the DMR, alternatively you can get ammo for a medium-ranged rifle, and if you already have a DMR and plenty of ammo, you can choose grenades. One issue brought up by playtesters was “What if I get a Carbine on the Left but I want a BR?” which is a fair complaint but the fact is there's no way around it. We could remove the grenades and put the BR and Light Rifle on Left and Right respectively, but then what if you don’t need ammo? Your ordnance becomes useless. And what if you want the Carbine? For whatever reason, you’re not allowed it. There are other options but all of them create more issues than they solve, and the possibility of getting a medium-ranged rifle that you didn’t want works to increase the skill gap. This is because you have to be skilled with every rifle, not just your favorite, and this is a definitive nod in the competitive player’s direction, for once. Each personal ordnance requires 40 points, this means 4 kills, or 3 kills with a few assists or some objective work. It also means that for something like a flag cap you instantly get rewarded with an ordnance drop. There is also no ordnance point-requirement growth like there is in normal Matchmaking, this is because there are no power weapons in ordnance in these settings, instead they work like resupply kit. Therefore gradually limiting their availability is pointless; all it would mean is that as the game went on ammo would become more scarce. Having point-requirement growth would only serve to add an annoyance. This is the best compromise to the DMR vs BR argument, which has been going on since Halo 4 released. Medium-ranged rifles in loadouts and DMRs in personal ordnance and placed on maps does the following: Fixes the limited ammo problem. Fixes the randomness of power weapons in ordnance. Retains the excitement of an element unique to Halo 4; working towards getting your ordnance meter up gives you a goal, no matter what you are playing, and when you finally get it you have the excitement of checking to see what you have. Casuals and even a lot of competitive players love this. If we were to remove personal ordnance and instead place rifles and nades on the map exclusively, not only would we remove this enjoyment and integral part of the Halo 4 experience, but we would clutter maps. Draws players from the two most populated playlists as the point of difference that sold a lot of players on the game is being utilized. Finally it works slightly towards addressing the issue of instant respawn, namely being killed across map by someone you just killed. If they can’t spawn with a DMR, they have a lesser chance of finishing you off than they would with a medium-ranged rifle. Instant Respawn Following with the instant respawn theme is our next change; 90% movement speed after respawn in instant respawn gametypes, 3 seconds duration in Infinity Slayer and 5 seconds in Objective gametypes. This is a 20% reduction in movement speed for a period of time similar to a normal respawn duration. One change we did do automatically was increasing to 110% base movement speed like what was done in previous Halo games. The reason this is acceptable is because it increases competitive merit without alienating casuals because they don’t even notice it. If anything they just ask why they are moving so slow when they go back into normal Matchmaking. 110% speed adds a positive for competitive players without adding an annoyance for casuals. The slight nerf we added to respawners in instant respawn gametypes helps to reduce the negative effect of instant respawn without being over the top. We could nerf respawners a lot more but then you run into issues of spawn killing players while in a nerfed state, and the issue of players not using instant respawn: They waits the normal respawn duration then has to endure a nerf period as well, this makes nerfing respawners tricky. We find that a short movement nerf coupled with medium-ranged rifles only off spawn, works fairly well to address instant respawn. It isn’t perfect and it isn’t as good as removing instant respawn entirely, but it’s the best we can do with the options available. Power Weapons Putting weapons on the map in a non-random fashion similar to what MLG has had in the past is the obvious and best solution to the ‘Limited Pickups’ issue in Matchmaking. With the ordnance waypoint system it also allows us to do it with the smallest amount of casual alienation we have ever had; there are nav points telling players where and when weapons are up, as well as when they are picked up. There are arguments for and against using nav points but again we need to stick to objective problem solving here: Are the nav points an annoyance in Matchmaking? No. Would removing the nav points be an annoyance for casuals going into an MLG playlist? Most definitely yes. We can also ask if weapon nav points ruin competitive value and there is no clear answer to that. If anything it just creates more map movement, which is a good thing. We have also used the static respawn technique for the primary power weapon of the map. Most maps utilize a neutral power weapon pickup such as a Rocket Launcher or Neutral Sniper, these weapons are placed on a 2 minute, 40 second spawn timer. This means that in a 15 minute game, the following game times are when these weapons spawn: 15:00, 12:20, 09:40, 06:00, 04:20, 01:40. With this technique we are limited to 2:00, 2:40, 3:20 or 4:00 for the respawn time due to the limitations of the customs options. Previously we have done 3 minute times and a large amount of competitive players love that, but there is also a large amount that want faster respawns to promote more of a movement and cyclic-based game like CE, rather than a set-up and wait 3 minutes for the Rockets type game. Again both sides have fair points so lets hit the compromise: 2:40. All other pickups are on 2 minute dynamic timers. It is important to use clean numbers so too much attention isn’t required for timing. Everyone has limited attention capacities, and Halo already requires a considerable amount. Everyone has had that situation where they can’t talk because they are trying to snipe. Putting too much emphasis on timing can take away from the game itself. At the end of the day Halo is about shooting, weapon and map control, and strategy. It’s not and shouldn’t be about math. Pros, Cons and Concerns Pros: DMR availability is toned down Fixes MM issue of running out of ammo Familiarity of Infinity Slayer with new people Lets the game play itself. It actually feels like Halo 4, not Reach v2 There is utility weapon variety. Will increase MLG’s growth. It acts on player’s frustration with default Halo 4 to draw them into the playlist, rather than drive them away like Slayer Pro currently does. Decision making skill is retained. Replay-ability is high due to variety. Depth of game is improved as ‘counter’ weapons/grenades can be used. Skill gap increased due to increased variables to deal with. More entertaining to watch as it is not the same fight over and over. Additionally viewers are absorbed into the mindset of the player in order to understand the decisions they make regarding loadout and personal ordnance choices. Cons: Disparity between amount of points gained in slayer and objective, this means personal ordnance can appear too often in objective. However the flipside to that is that objective players are finally rewarded for their actions (getting ordnance for holding the ball or capping a flag). It is different to what MLG has typically been in the past, it might throw a few competitive players off Concerns: Still requires testing to make sure we have the personal ordnance point requirement right; we don’t want it so low that the map is being spammed with personal ordnance drops, but we can’t have it so high that DMRs are too scarce and players run out of ammo. 40 points feels good right now however. Instant respawn issues still exist, they are slightly mitigated but until it is patched the problem will remain. Exact Settings Below are the exact settings we are suggesting, these are based off changing the default Infinity Slayer gametype (then obviously doing the equivalent for objective gametypes): Infinity Slayer Options> Score to win: 600pts Time limit: 15 minutes Suicide Bonus: -10 General settings> Friendly Fire: Enabled Team Changing: Not Allowed Map Loadouts: Disabled Loadout Usage: Game Loadouts Game Loadouts>> Loadout Alpha= Primary: Battle Rifle, Secondary: None, Grenades: Frag x2, Armor Ability: none, Tactical Package: Resupply, Supply Package: Awareness, Loadout= Not Hidden Loadout Beta= Primary: Covenant Carbine, Secondary: None, Grenades: Frag x2, Armor Ability: none, Tactical Package: Resupply, Supply Package: Awareness, Loadout= Not Hidden Loadout Gamma= Primary: Light Rifle, Secondary: None, Grenades: Frag x2, Armor Ability: none, Tactical Package: Resupply, Supply Package: Awareness, Loadout= Not Hidden Loadout Delta= Primary: Assault Rifle, Secondary: None, Grenades: Frag x2, Armor Ability: none, Tactical Package: Resupply, Supply Package: Awareness, Loadout= Not Hidden Respawn settings> Respawn time= 5 Seconds Death Cam= Disabled Ordnance> Infinity Settings>> Minimum timer=160 Maximum timer=160 Personal Ordnance Options>> Customize Personal Ordnance=Enabled Left=1st: Battle Rifle, 2nd: Covenant Carbine, 3rd: Light Rifle, all others: none. Middle= 1st: DMR, all others: none. Right= 1st: Plasma Grenades, 2nd: Pulse Grenades, all others: none. Weighting for each stays at 1. Point Requirement: 40 points Point Increase Multiplier: 0% Traits> Base Player Traits>> Equipment>>> Sensor Mode: Ally Movement Movement>>> Player Speed: 110% Appearance>>> Waypoint: Visible to Allies Respawn Traits>> (in instant respawn gametypes only) Movement>>> Player Speed: 90% Duration: (3 seconds for Infinity Slayer, 5 seconds for Oddball & KotH) Following up (FAQ) “This seems like a good compromise. I'd like to see the DMR in as a starting rifle, but this is ok too. I would like to see armor abilities incorporated somehow though. Removing them creates a barrier for casuals and with proper implementation AAs could add to the skill gap. Maybe replace the grenade option for the PODs with some AAs that aren't too OP? Like JP, TP, and maybe Regen.” - Chef Linguni “We never said have no Armor Abilities, just not in loadouts due to the restriction of custom options. Armor Abilities can most definitely be placed on the map as pick-ups.” - K2Five “For years all I would hear about is how we need an accurate, powerful, single shot weapon. We got that weapon in Post-TU Reach and we had a great game. Now we're trying to get rid of it because of a bunch of people that think Halo 3 is the holy grail of gaming.” - bunniesz23 “I feel you dog, but the reality is ~50-60% of the competitive population is Anti-DMR, we cannot ignore that. With such an even split both parties must make compromises. If we make an absolute decision (DMR start, or BR only), we **** off 50% of the competitive community. Can we really afford to **** off 50% of the community right now? That’s the real question.” - K2Five “AA's. casuals will want these, hell i even want them lol. there are obvious AA's that are annoyances (Pro-vision, Camo, regen) AA's that have no good or bad effect on gameplay whatsoever (decoy, auto turret) and AA's that add to gameplay but have a equal disadvantages to its advantages (jet pack and thrusters).” - OctoSin “In terms of AA I think me and K2Five are saying its to be pick up that should be left to specific maps. These settings are simply designed to be fundamental, not to cater to details. (Personally, the depth added of even thruster pack would be sick). Finally, my feedback is the ordnance points still need tweaking. Currently if a team's winning by a decent amount it feels like Personal Ordnance is dropping too often, but is fine for the losing team. To counter this I would like to suggest minor Ordnance growth.” - Kambo “Excellent read, I agree with a decent amount of it but the sniper balance is questionable with the DMR gone from loadouts. I don't agree with accommodating to casuals for competitive rulesets, I think the game already does enough of that.” - BigShot “Light rifle? Turnover of players is constant. Accommodating to casuals isn't THE reason though. 'Accommodating the casuals' represents qualities such as accessibility, replay value and variety. A lot of which Reach was missing. And made H2 and 3 fun. Its the overlooked factors.” - Kambo “If you are trying to appeal to casuals as well as competitive players, probably should have talked about the naming of an MLG style playlist, it does seem to be that the Stigma of the MLG name as a playlist simply pushes casual players away, whereas in Halo 2 calling it THC, players were like "Hardcore aye ?, im Hardcore, LETS FARKING GO!" - Kuran (Just a quote that provides some food for thought) “Good write up, but it kinda irks me that he said this is a compromise between BR/DMR. The DMR being a pickup/POD is not a solution that is a compromise. It's totally a BR pro argument” - Cow says meow “We co-wrote the doc, and both of us are pro-DMR. Plus once you play the settings you will realize DMRs are bountiful.” -K2Five “Anyone know which Fileshare to download the maps off? Also they didn't mention any change to objective gametypes, like are objectives instant kill melees, does the hill decrease by time or points etc.” - OuTbreaK “Download from: K2Five TSW The purpose of this doc is to provide a guideline only. The gametypes in my fileshare are just the ones we are testing as of now, based off the ideas in this doc. You can download and use them if you like, but getting people to download our gametypes wasn't the goal. The goal was to get people to look at competitive settings differently and try getting the community to be a bit more cooperative and constructive. So for objective gametypes of course you would make edits such as removing 1-hit-kill melees, but we felt that kind of detail wasn't required.” - K2Five “Instant Respawn - I have a serious issue with your fix. Anybody, competitive or not will HATE moving like your in mud for 3s. That is the worst possible solution and will turn people off to your gametype.” -Yoseph “The movement nerf is not that noticeable. No one has complained about it in playtesting and it most definitely doesn't feel like you are moving in mud. As for the rest of your post I know what goldpro has done with their settings and I like them. But our intention was to get an idea and a thought process out there, not to push 'our settings'. We did put forward a version of our settings simply to have something to refer to throughout the doc, but we aren't saying ‘our settings are final, all must conform!"’ its simply an idea for all parties to think about” - K2Five “@Kurtiz - I completely support the idea and thought process you are presenting. I hope it gets through to the people making the important decisions.” - Yoseph “The one thing I didn't agree with though was the use of waypoints above weapons given that you gave some of the power weapons dynamic re-spawn traits. So for example on a map like Solace or Adrift where there's 2 snipers, you are able to tell when the opposing team picks up their respective sniper because there's a waypoint above it which will disappear. A fairly important part of competitive play in Halo 3 was being able to burn their sniper on Narrows or The Pit for example. Not only does it allow you to have a lot more control over their respective weapon, it also denies them the ability to work around it. It's the same principle as Overshield or Camo in previous games, it was very important to know what timer it was on because it gave you a distinct advantage to work around. If there was a waypoint above the overshield or camo which let you know when the opposing team picked it up, it would remove the advantage that they have.” - Blaze “Yeah that is a fair point and I felt the same way after trying having all weapons with nav points. I got the feeling of 'oh this is handy because I don't have to track them as much anymore', but then thought 'hmm maybe that takes away from weapon timing a bit too much'. Good point, will be interesting to see if anyone else brings this up as an issue and what Ghost etc. do with it.” - K2Five Support “Even after reading this well written, well thought out thesis, people are still saying "What I prefer...", "What I like...". It's like the whole point was missed. They even state at the beginning they understanding that there are different "camps" but the issue is that we have to think about whats best for Halo as a whole. I'm paraphrasing but, MLG will not last without the casual crowd because out of the casual crowd comes new, and fresh faces not to mention a viewing audience. Like the article said we have to make it appealing to the casual crowd for a couple reasons. One, so the ones that are watching the event know what they're looking at. And two, the fresh faces that are considering crossing over aren't terrified by the foreign feeling. I believe what is proposed by this article is a huge step in the right direction. ” - XoJUSTIFIEDoX “Very good article. I truly think that if this was implemented this could easily lead to a much better competitive Halo experience, and an overall much better Halo experience. I think the best part of this is its just balanced. In every manner.” - ChaosGuitarist “I don't think the debates will ever stop. Even if we have both, I think the pro-BR will still complain that they can't do anything long range against an entire team of DMR. I also think that if we have both, the BR users will be few and far in between just because the DMR is the better weapon and you don't want to handy cap yourself if you choose the BR. I honestly think that this way of compromising is the best that we'll come up with.” - shzlss “Very good article IMO. Well articulated. I agree with some and disagree with others but I did enjoy reading it and can respect it. I also suggested similar settings to these before in another thread with BR starts, 30 point ordinances with Thruster, DMR, and Boltshot options only. I am definitely on the bandwagon for these settings and hope to see them implemented in some form in future gametypes. Well done.” - I_Hulk_I “10/10 Very good read, I can imagine that these settings would provide the optimal competitive experience for the game in it's current state. Well done.” - Viper “I think what the document states would be a great method to bring the numbers back, get the juices flowing, show people its safe to leave the bad default settings.” - Karneasy “Some really good points in there, I like how you've tried to deal with the starting weapon issue. Also love the idea of using the radar only to show where your teammates are/died.” - Tranquility “I thought game types played well; A good basis to work around. DMR in ordnance drops really balances it out IMO, most the time it only 30seconds to earn one, and the variety of rifles being used was enjoyable.” - .2D All posts taken from: majorleaguegaming.com halocouncil.com haloforum.eu aclpro.com.au cybergamer.com.au adversitygaming.com 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Restraint Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I support your theory on what makes a game competitive, and also like how you isolated each problem and addressed each with a suggested solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiing 0f Coffe Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Do you work for 343? If you don't, you defininately should. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khorpse Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 I was thinking there only needed to be a few changes for there to be a good competitive mode. After reading through this and thinking, there's sooo much than would need to be done to make this a good MLG game. IF the MLG comes along, it would almost have to be an entirely different game. Either way, I support the OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedStarRocket91 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 This is excellent! I'd definitely consider playing with these settings, though I'm not sure I agree with the loadout weapons: surely it would be better to just force everyone to start with a Battle Rifle? That way the left ordnance could be dedicated to a Carbine or Lightrifle, and there'd still be no issues with running out of ammunition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikslik7 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Well I must say that this does capture Halo 4 and MLG. I really like this and would move towards more MLG if this was to be enacted by 343i. All I have to say is: the spawn time for the power weapons with 2:40, it isn't 6:00, but 7:00. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cortar Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 Awesome write up, thank you for posting it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halogeek99 Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 I like the read too. I would like to see the very same things pushed a bit further in Ivanilla playlists, having all carbine types in drops including plasma pistol/boltshot also. Take all powerweapons out of them, but keep shottys and needler in. The rest of power weapons on map only. AR/ pistol starts only. Nerf wallhack. Fix spawn times. Add more thrust to Jetpack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N1AK Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 I think you've hit exactly the right starting premise, I guess we'd just disagree on how to resolve it. I think part of the question needs to be who are these changes meant to appeal to. As someone who has played Halo online on and off since the original I have no interest in playing a mode that deviates so far from the standard set up. Maybe I and gamers like me aren't your target demographic for new players, however I think you need to define who that demographic is and whether these rules will appeal to them. I would expect that many if not most people who are happily playing H4 multiplayer would be put off by the sheer amount of change here. Trying out MLG in H2 was a simple as start with a different weapon and no radar; in H4 it is no radar, changes to respawn, no loadouts, no AA, fixed tactical/support, changed map setup, changed ordnance, no radar. That is a vastly different game. I appreciate that you're trying to make a wide array of players 'happy' and it's a thankless task and you may well have hit the nearest thing to a workable compromise that can happen within MLG so none of the above is criticism. I do think that MLG is become more and more vulnerable to disruption though because there is massive room as is for competitive H4 play with settings nearer to the vanilla ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halogeek99 Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Ffs they need to do ANYTHING. The casuals have left too. Back to basics, no bull****, fair play is the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairly New Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 I agree with this thread. But a few thoughts. DMR should either be a primary or considered a power weapon (meaning not on every corner). Primary: I honestly think that if you don't like DMR then you should use BR and not complain when you get owned by someone who can adapt and play a new game. Power weapon: If your gonna make everyone start with br/carb/ar DMR should be considered an upgrade to those who use it and thus should be limited on the map. NOT plentiful. AA should be thruster pack. This ability gives limited effects to the game. It does not give an overwhelming advantage to any player and is good for evasion which would help make game more tactical and relying on communication/teamwork. PV and Camo would make good powerups spawning every min or 2. The settings NEED to be figured out quickly. The people who complain about things in the MLG settings need to shut up and learn to adapt. ITs H4 afterall not H3. Flag/Ball mechanics are good for MLG This is H4, play w/ H4 mechanics. Its the same for everyone no-one has a advantage if its the same, adapt or suck is what I would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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