John 117 : Above The Law

[Baeztoberfest]

Who thinks S117's actions weren't befitting of any marine? I thought his neglecting orders showed poorly on how the chain of command works. Don't get me wrong, I love the Chief. But directly disobeying a senior officers commands in today's military is punishable by death in the UCMJ. So why was it just portrayed as being so cavalier and acceptable for him to do this? He's never been a rebel but an outstanding super weapon. A one man army of sorts. Not the disobedient aging hardware he is in 4.

[Real Talk]

I think the man who was abducted as a child, served his life as a soldier, and saved the galaxy (twice now?) should be allowed to disobey a debatable order. I say debatable because everyone has opinion on the order. He had his reasons he did not just decide to tell Del Rio to screw off for no reason. Also hes not just any soldier.

[Caboose The Ace]

if he had not the didact would have gone to earth and conposed it so it was worth the sacrifise and chief had a good point to do it

[Dr. Halsey]

I found this very interesting. My first thought was "What? Chief is disobeying orders!" I think it was great scene and it showed how John isn't A mindless supersoldier anymore. Spending time with cortana has changed him and he is doing what he thinks is right. It is also understandable that soldier that has saved the galaxy wants to protect only person who is close to him.

 

As Lasky said in the last scene Master Chief isn't just a tool for humanity. He is human too.

[Killani64]

It showed that John isn't merely a machine following orders, like a computer following commands. He holds some things dear, or finds them more important that obeying these orders.

Refusing to hand over Cortana, stopping the Didact and such things show that he isn't just mindlessly mowing down those covenant, he actually values what he does in a way

any human would.

[Baeztoberfest]

It showed that John isn't merely a machine following orders, like a computer following commands. He holds some things dear, or finds them more important that obeying these orders.

Refusing to hand over Cortana, stopping the Didact and such things show that he isn't just mindlessly mowing down those covenant, he actually values what he does in a way

any human would.

 

Plenty I good soldiers now a days care about what they do. But there really is no room for mutiny within the ranks. Especially an E-9.

[medcsu]

Who thinks S117's actions weren't befitting of any marine? I thought his neglecting orders showed poorly on how the chain of command works. Don't get me wrong, I love the Chief. But directly disobeying a senior officers commands in today's military is punishable by death in the UCMJ. So why was it just portrayed as being so cavalier and acceptable for him to do this? He's never been a rebel but an outstanding super weapon. A one man army of sorts. Not the disobedient aging hardware he is in 4.

 

Great post, good thoughts. However (and there is no reason you would know this), as a military man let me tell you that special forces members (ie: MC) not only have no prong in any normal chain of command (ie: in a battle situation he actually holds discretion over Del Rio, though he cannot commandeer his vessel) but their (special forces) chain comes directly from their respected squadron and that squadron alone. In this case, Lord Hood would be the (only one we know of at this time) commanding officer over the MC. That being said, I see how it looks as Del Rio was disobeyed but trust me when I say that even in actual wars/real battles, special force members (especially Delta) have discretion on priority missions. Chief is kind of like a super Delta member with the same discretion. He cannot be brought up on charges for disobeying Del Rio, however, Del Rio should also not be brought up on charges for not aiding the MC as his priority is to safeguard his crew and vessel.

 

However, Lasky would absolutely be brought up on charges for servicing and allowing the MC to take military UNSC hardware from the hanger with that bird he "accidently" let him use (how Del Rio didn't know this is beyond me).

 

Obviously we are all (myself included) looking way too much into this but the fact remains that from a battle standpoint, MC has total OPCOM discretion where as Del Rio has total discretion on his vessel and crew. It was simply a matter of an immovable object meeting an unstoppable force. I really hope Del Rio doesnt lose everything for being put into an impossible situation.

[Durandal v2]

Johns standing order from hood was "protect humanity" The Didact is a major threat to humanity therefore giving John reason to ignore Del Rio's orders

[The Director]

Actually, by the rules of most modern navies, Commander Laskey would have been within his rights to commandeer the vessel and confine Captain Del Rio to his quarters on grounds of cowardice.

[Baeztoberfest]

Actually, by the rules of most modern navies, Commander Laskey would have been within his rights to commandeer the vessel and confine Captain Del Rio to his quarters on grounds of cowardice.

 

Cowardice would be a very difficult charge to prove. As others have pointed out (in other threads) he really was in an impossible situation. That standing and given The Chiefs MIA status, that must've played in somehow to the decision making of a superior officer. It would be like going on a rescue mission and when you found the guy you were attempting to rescue, he blatantly disobeyed your orders in front of senior enlisted and commissioned officers. If I was te CO of that ship, I'd have lost my cool too.

[The Director]

Cowardice would be a very difficult charge to prove. As others have pointed out (in other threads) he really was in an impossible situation. That standing and given The Chiefs MIA status, that must've played in somehow to the decision making of a superior officer. It would be like going on a rescue mission and when you found the guy you were attempting to rescue, he blatantly disobeyed your orders in front of senior enlisted and commissioned officers. If I was te CO of that ship, I'd have lost my cool too.

Actually, he wasn't in an impossible situation. The ship was damaged but far from seriously damaged. Not to mention that they caused the enemy enough damage that he had to retreat, and instead of pressing the attack (which is what one would normally do) he showed signs of being shaken and ordered a full retreat, even after presented with evidence that the enemy could potentially attempt (and succeed) at destroying Earth.

 

A commander has to be willing to give the lives of not only himself but everyone under his command to fulfill his duty. He should always be on the lookout for ways to avoid spending lives, but he must not be hesitant to do so. Captain Del Rio not only had an emotional outburst in front of lesser ranks (conduct unbecoming of an officer), not only ordered the destruction of potentially vital UNSC intelligence hardware (Cortana), but also ordered a full retreat from a potential galactic threat. I would not be surprised if in Halo 5 we hear about a Second Lieutenant Del Rio.

[Baeztoberfest]

 

 

Great post, good thoughts. However (and there is no reason you would know this), as a military man let me tell you that special forces members (ie: MC) not only have no prong in any normal chain of command (ie: in a battle situation he actually holds discretion over Del Rio, though he cannot commandeer his vessel) but their (special forces) chain comes directly from their respected squadron and that squadron alone. In this case, Lord Hood would be the (only one we know of at this time) commanding officer over the MC. That being said, I see how it looks as Del Rio was disobeyed but trust me when I say that even in actual wars/real battles, special force members (especially Delta) have discretion on priority missions. Chief is kind of like a super Delta member with the same discretion. He cannot be brought up on charges for disobeying Del Rio, however, Del Rio should also not be brought up on charges for not aiding the MC as his priority is to safeguard his crew and vessel.

 

However, Lasky would absolutely be brought up on charges for servicing and allowing the MC to take military UNSC hardware from the hanger with that bird he "accidently" let him use (how Del Rio didn't know this is beyond me).

 

Obviously we are all (myself included) looking way too much into this but the fact remains that from a battle standpoint, MC has total OPCOM discretion where as Del Rio has total discretion on his vessel and crew. It was simply a matter of an immovable object meeting an unstoppable force. I really hope Del Rio doesnt lose everything for being put into an impossible situation.

 

Lol. I'm a military man too. Specialist. US Army. (That's actually a picture of me in OCP's when I was in Afghanistan last year.) I do understand dealings with special forces and will agree. They are a force of their own. Although I can't say I've dealt with Delta ever, I will say that even then they have a chain of command. In most situations I ever saw it'd be some young sergeant type getting beat down by some platoon sergeant and when they see that special forces tab on his sleeve they leave him alone. Albeit except for a senior commissioned officer. That rank would still carry some gravity to it even presiding over an E-9. Granted I'm not in the Navy and can't speak for what the regs are for the UNSC 550 years from now. Lol.

 

You're right by the way. We're looking WAY too deep into it. But that's the beauty of a good story. You can analyze it and hypothesize all day. I hate stories that leave nothing to the imagination.

 

That being said, I think Lord Hoods direct involvement would've been a bit more appropriate to over see The Chief's agenda. Maybe wouldn't have fit for storylines sake, as we have no idea what Lord Hood's military status is anymore.

 

At the point of MIA, and once they found MC, a thorough debriefing should have been done. Should Del Rio have listened to Chief? Yes. Should Chief had done his own thing like Chief always does? Always (Makes for good story telling). Should Chief had disobeyed a direct order from a commanding officer along with Sarah Palmer? (From a military standpoint) Absolutely not. Only time this is acceptable is in the case of an improper order.

 

Had that been the case, it would've made more sense. I can see his rationale if this was indeed his train of thought but that would require much more proof. New Pheonix hadn't have happened yet so at THAT time, they lacked the reasoning to justify that it was, putting Chief in the wrong.

 

Actually, he wasn't in an impossible situation. The ship was damaged but far from seriously damaged. Not to mention that they caused the enemy enough damage that he had to retreat, and instead of pressing the attack (which is what one would normally do) he showed signs of being shaken and ordered a full retreat, even after presented with evidence that the enemy could potentially attempt (and succeed) at destroying Earth.

 

A commander has to be willing to give the lives of not only himself but everyone under his command to fulfill his duty. He should always be on the lookout for ways to avoid spending lives, but he must not be hesitant to do so. Captain Del Rio not only had an emotional outburst in front of lesser ranks (conduct unbecoming of an officer), not only ordered the destruction of potentially vital UNSC intelligence hardware (Cortana), but also ordered a full retreat from a potential galactic threat. I would not be surprised if in Halo 5 we hear about a Second Lieutenant Del Rio.

 

Haha! Touché my friend. I agree with most of what you said. Minus the destruction of Cortana. In all likelihood, given her direct involvement with The Flood, Forerunner constructs, and The Covenant (Dating from The Winter Contingency to these new rogue covenant) Oni would have more than likely decommissioned her after extensive evaluations.

 

Perhaps a better course of action would have been setting up an orbital perimeter around Requiem with ground forces maintaining the gravity well to make sure they don't get sucked in again and maybe sent a frigate to earth to warn them. (Are frigates capable of Slip Space Travel? I know the Autumn was and Forward Unto Dawn... Just making sure). A loss of that caliber though in unknown hostile territory would have been catastrophic and a bit too Custer if you ask me.

 

Again, this is just my speculation. The question is what devastation could have been prevented had The Chief followed his orders? And what would've happened anyway?

[The Director]

Haha! Touché my friend. I agree with most of what you said. Minus the destruction of Cortana. In all likelihood, given her direct involvement with The Flood, Forerunner constructs, and The Covenant (Dating from The Winter Contingency to these new rogue covenant) Oni would have more than likely decommissioned her after extensive evaluations.

 

Perhaps a better course of action would have been setting up an orbital perimeter around Requiem with ground forces maintaining the gravity well to make sure they don't get sucked in again and maybe sent a frigate to earth to warn them. (Are frigates capable of Slip Space Travel? I know the Autumn was and Forward Unto Dawn... Just making sure). A loss of that caliber though in unknown hostile territory would have been catastrophic and a bit too Custer if you ask me.

 

Again, this is just my speculation. The question is what devastation could have been prevented had The Chief followed his orders? And what would've happened anyway?

The keyphrase there is "After extensive evaluations" lol ONI would have made Del Rio's life very, very difficult (and possibly shorter) if he actually had destroyed Cortana. You see, Cortana was not only carrying information on the Ark that would have been useful, but information about the gravemind, the Prometheans (and the Didact), and many other things that would have been very useful. If anyone had destroyed her, they may have actually been charged with treason. It's a good thing she destroyed herself, right? lol

 

And yes, the correct course of action would have been to deploy recon teams (actual recon) to find the location of the Didact while getting into and maintaining an orbit around the planet, apprising Earth of the situation, and waiting for further orders. They may also have taken the initiative and launched a preemptive assault. But full retreat was not necessary, nor rated.

 

Oh, and yeah most frigates are equipped for slip-space jumps.

[Caboose The Ace]

i dont think at the time infinty crahed on requim they had firgites inside but when the infinty came back it did so that is he reason why baeztoberfests plan could not work

[Seeker of Truth]

Plenty I good soldiers now a days care about what they do. But there really is no room for mutiny within the ranks. Especially an E-9.

 

Are you seriously saying that he should have let the entire planet be composed? The Didact was going to leave for the Composer and then Earth as soon as he failed to destroy the Infinity. Disobeying a direct order is pretty insignificant when the fate of your species is in your hands. As for not turning over Cortana...If she had been deleted on the Infinity, and John had gone alone, the Didact would have killed him, there is simply no arguing with that. If you watch the final cutscene, the Didact defeats John effortlessly. And of course with him dead there would be no one left to stop the Didact, and the planet would have been composed. And before you say "then the Infinity or another ship would have destroyed the composer", according to Halopedia, the Composer "locks up" when it's not active, leaving it pretty much indestructable. So basically, if he had obeyed Del Rio, then it would have been adios, Earth.

[Ramo 'Talusee]

Are you seriously saying that he should have let the entire planet be composed? The Didact was going to leave for the Composer and then Earth as soon as he failed to destroy the Infinity. Disobeying a direct order is pretty insignificant when the fate of your species is in your hands. As for not turning over Cortana...If she had been deleted on the Infinity, and John had gone alone, the Didact would have killed him, there is simply no arguing with that. If you watch the final cutscene, the Didact defeats John effortlessly. And of course with him dead there would be no one left to stop the Didact, and the planet would have been composed. And before you say "then the Infinity or another ship would have destroyed the composer", according to Halopedia, the Composer "locks up" when it's not active, leaving it pretty much indestructable. So basically, if he had obeyed Del Rio, then it would have been adios, Earth.

 

Adding on to this, who says an inferior fleet of UNSC vessels can even handle something like a Forunner Ship

[D-38 Boss]

Technically after being considered KIA for almost 5 years he wouldn't be considered active military. so he wasn't disobeying orders. not to mention the story would **** if it was like,

 

"Don't go save the world Chief that's an order."

 

"K, Lolz."

[Ramo 'Talusee]

Technically after being considered KIA for almost 5 years he wouldn't be considered active military. so he wasn't disobeying orders. not to mention the story would **** if it was like,

 

"Don't go save the world Chief that's an order."

 

"K, Lolz."

 

Spartans never die

[Seeker of Truth]

"Don't go save the world Chief that's an order."

 

This made my day, lol. Brilliant!

[Baeztoberfest]

 

 

Are you seriously saying that he should have let the entire planet be composed? The Didact was going to leave for the Composer and then Earth as soon as he failed to destroy the Infinity. Disobeying a direct order is pretty insignificant when the fate of your species is in your hands. As for not turning over Cortana...If she had been deleted on the Infinity, and John had gone alone, the Didact would have killed him, there is simply no arguing with that. If you watch the final cutscene, the Didact defeats John effortlessly. And of course with him dead there would be no one left to stop the Didact, and the planet would have been composed. And before you say "then the Infinity or another ship would have destroyed the composer", according to Halopedia, the Composer "locks up" when it's not active, leaving it pretty much indestructable. So basically, if he had obeyed Del Rio, then it would have been adios, Earth.

 

The point was the Chief did not know his intentions at that time. All he knew was that the Didact was vulnerable and he wanted to squash him. That's not how the military works. Regardless of how sterling your jacket is, you're still a soldier with an obligation to duty, ONLY DISREGARDING DIRECT ORDERS when it puts your own well being in harms way or orders you to kill civilians. Things like that. And before you say anything about composer, the Chief didn't know any of the didacts plans to eliminate earth at that point in the story. He had just grabbed a pelican shortly after to intercept the didacts ship.

 

Technically after being considered KIA for almost 5 years he wouldn't be considered active military. so he wasn't disobeying orders. not to mention the story would **** if it was like,

 

"Don't go save the world Chief that's an order."

 

"K, Lolz."

 

That's not military doctrine at all. If you're MIA and you're rescued you don't just have no chain of command, you fall under the chain of command to your rescuers. I don't know where you heard that but it's wrong.

[Broken_Arrow]

Not to mention the order to kill Cortana. That was great.

[Caboose The Ace]

yes but think about it balofest i think that how youre names splet the chief knew the didact would go for the compreser and he was weak so he wanted to go after him befor he coukd go after it he had ever right to do it

[01-171 Abased Eidolon]

I think Dr. Halsey said it best when she was speaking with Noble Team.

 

"... are you a puppet or a spartan?"

[SGT Warchild]

As said, the cheif has a special rank in the military, and strong ties to Hood, in First Strike, he takes command of an ONI officer, an ODST, pilot, and SGT Johnson, the ONI officer was wanting to ship technology to Earth, but Chief had orders to take it to the covie fleet and kill their leaders, which was his ORIGINAL mission before reach was assualted, he has aquired and commendeered assets with his orders before, I'm sure he was following his true orders to destroy any enemy of the UNSC, as his outh to them states.

 

Oh and not to mention the respect of the entire crew, they would mutiny if they had to to protect Cortana and the chief, he is a War hero and Hood's favorite soldier, had they destroyed cortana, Hood would of deranked and imprisoned the Captain.

 

Lasky CANNOT be punished by the Capt. as in the thursday war states, the head ONI dispised the capt. and preffered lasky and even said the capt. did not gain any respect from the crew, Hood ordered the Capt. as per the agreement to build the Infinity, she hated this and kept in constant contact with Lasky.

 

Lol. I'm a military man too. Specialist. US Army. (That's actually a picture of me in OCP's when I was in Afghanistan last year.) I do understand dealings with special forces and will agree. They are a force of their own. Although I can't say I've dealt with Delta ever, I will say that even then they have a chain of command. In most situations I ever saw it'd be some young sergeant type getting beat down by some platoon sergeant and when they see that special forces tab on his sleeve they leave him alone. Albeit except for a senior commissioned officer. That rank would still carry some gravity to it even presiding over an E-9. Granted I'm not in the Navy and can't speak for what the regs are for the UNSC 550 years from now. Lol.

 

You're right by the way. We're looking WAY too deep into it. But that's the beauty of a good story. You can analyze it and hypothesize all day. I hate stories that leave nothing to the imagination.

 

That being said, I think Lord Hoods direct involvement would've been a bit more appropriate to over see The Chief's agenda. Maybe wouldn't have fit for storylines sake, as we have no idea what Lord Hood's military status is anymore.

 

At the point of MIA, and once they found MC, a thorough debriefing should have been done. Should Del Rio have listened to Chief? Yes. Should Chief had done his own thing like Chief always does? Always (Makes for good story telling). Should Chief had disobeyed a direct order from a commanding officer along with Sarah Palmer? (From a military standpoint) Absolutely not. Only time this is acceptable is in the case of an improper order.

 

Had that been the case, it would've made more sense. I can see his rationale if this was indeed his train of thought but that would require much more proof. New Pheonix hadn't have happened yet so at THAT time, they lacked the reasoning to justify that it was, putting Chief in the wrong.

 

 

 

Haha! Touché my friend. I agree with most of what you said. Minus the destruction of Cortana. In all likelihood, given her direct involvement with The Flood, Forerunner constructs, and The Covenant (Dating from The Winter Contingency to these new rogue covenant) Oni would have more than likely decommissioned her after extensive evaluations.

 

Perhaps a better course of action would have been setting up an orbital perimeter around Requiem with ground forces maintaining the gravity well to make sure they don't get sucked in again and maybe sent a frigate to earth to warn them. (Are frigates capable of Slip Space Travel? I know the Autumn was and Forward Unto Dawn... Just making sure). A loss of that caliber though in unknown hostile territory would have been catastrophic and a bit too Custer if you ask me.

 

Again, this is just my speculation. The question is what devastation could have been prevented had The Chief followed his orders? And what would've happened anyway?

The pelicans have slip space capabilites now, there was a cache found of forerunner tech that increased slip space capabilites in the thursday war

[SykoWolf]

The Master chief is the most respected Spartan and soldier on the front lines of the UNSC.

Spartans aren't trained to obey orders, but to do their job...save humanity..... at ANY cost...

Therefore, John disobeying that order was what he felt was needed, even IF he doesn't like to disobey orders....

 

Halsey put it best in Halo:Reach...he is a Spartan NOT a puppet