The Mantis' Design...

[Cortar]

I think the only reason the Mantis made it into the game was for the "OMGSOCOOL" factor. Design and balance wise, it doesn't fit into the game at all. Here is a list of all of the other vehicles:

 

Ghost

Banshee

Wraith

 

Mongoose

Warthog- Normal

Warthog- Guass

Scorpion Tank

Mantis

 

Traditionally, the strongest of vehicles were only at full power with two players. The two tanks can not use their secondary guns without a second gunner (this helps them finish off or weaken players and it prevents people from boarding from the front. The two warthogs are ONLY powerful with two players. The remaining vehicles which require only one person have much lower power levels or fulfill different roles. The Ghost is an anti-infantry vehicle with almost no anti-vehicle power. The Mongoose is only a mode of transportation. The Banshee is the strongest of these set of vehicles but it is very fragile, especially since rockets can home again. Also, since you can no longer control the flow of power weapons, the Banshee is even more vulnerable.

 

But then there is the Mantis. It is at full power with only one person. It cannot be boarded in the front. It has a smaller and better profile than the two tanks. It has two weapons, independent of each other. It has no turning radius problems. And it has a strong melee 1hk that doesn't disable its other weapons.

 

The Mantis is the only vehicle which cannot be bested by another*. It outright wins against everything, easily. For such a high reward, there is little risk as it is much more durable than most of the other vehicles. So the only vehicle that can counter the Mantis is the Mantis itself. This is not good design.

 

 

*I don't think we will ever see a Mantis and a Scorpion tank on the same map so I haven't tested which one will win, but it would probably come down to who sees who first.

[Bloody Initiate]

While I certainly agree that it is a tough beast, I think its toughness relative to other vehicles becomes disproportionate due to how awful 343 made the other vehicles. The ghost, banshee, and the standard warthog are incredibly easy to take down, especially the banshee and standard warthog (Ghost is the only one that can get to cover fast so it ends up surviving a bit longer than both, weirdly).

 

I disagree that it can only be countered by another Mantis though, and I've definitely experienced things that contradict your claims:

 

I've been boarded from the back multiple times.

 

Tanks have never needed secondary gunners to destroy people and in fact the secondary gunners are frequenly so vulnerable that people don't want the job or die soon after taking it. I got in one just today and a guy picked me out with his DMR so easily I felt stupid for even trying.

 

I don't think there's a chance in hell that a Mantis could stand against a Scorpion in a fair fight. Wraiths are a different story since they have to get closer to targets, anyone who can stay out of their range can conceivably kill them.

 

A smart banshee which has some freedom in the air will very likely beat a Mantis. The problem banshees have is they have a hard time hiding, you're almost never being shot by just one enemy when you're in a banshee. Since the banshee can't take headshots the Mantis becomes the most likely member of its team to take down a banshee because its shells are doing the most individual damage.

 

Traditionally the Scorpion tank has always been much better than the Warthogs, the Gauss Warthog is its only competitor, and generally that is about as fair as it sounds. The vehicle that actually REQUIRES two people to effectively operate (Warthogs) has actually always been in about the middle of the food chain, once again the Gauss is the exception. Also to be fair a Gauss can't take a Scorpion head on in a fair fight either, nothing can. The fact is there just aren't many fair fights where Scorpions are involved, so it's hard to grasp just how much harder they hit than the other vehicles.

 

Returning to my point above, much of what makes the Mantis SEEM so awesome against other vehicles is that 343 kinda hates vehicles as weapons. They like destroying them and using them for shenanigans, but they don't like the idea of vehicles being major power weapons, that's why they made them all so soft in this game. Why else would the "Vehicles" commendations consist of splatters (Shenanigans), wheelmen + jacking medals, and then nothing but a list of vehicles and how many you've destroyed. There is no commendation that counts the "Vehicle Kill" medal. 343 is perfectly happy to have you screw around in a vehicle, use it for an objective, or destroy it.

 

The Mantis is 343's original creation though, so its main asset is its durability. Its guns are about as good as they should be, but it gets to go up against all the other vehicles which have armor made of wet toilet paper. It doesn't feel overpowered because no vehicle does in this game, but against other vehicles I will admit it often feels way better. I don't think that's a problem with the Mantis though, because it is still very easy to take down when its operator isn't very careful. It's a problem with all the other vehicles and the attitude 343 has about them. They don't like vehicles, and they don't want them to be major power weapons.

 

To be fair though this is almost more of a throwback to Halo: CE. Due to the way vehicle health was handled in that game most players didn't use vehicles for anything but their speed (Like we use mongooses now). Warthogs were good for objectives and shenanigans, which is what 343 wants them to be used for now. Until the people making Halo like vehicles again they'll never feel right. People who like the thing they're making will make it better, it's just a fact.

[Caboose The Ace]

a mantis int he trailer looked very op but now i think from experince its not to hard to take dwn consider the factors

[Cortar]

a mantis int he trailer looked very op but now i think from experince its not to hard to take dwn consider the factors

 

What factors?

[Caboose The Ace]

its height

its slow

if u get to close it can find it hard to kill peaple

etc

 

its not op at all

[SatanicBagels]

The balancing present for the Mantis is actually very well done and interesting to look at. The Mantis is not a serious power vehicle unlike some people seem to think. That is why if you take your Mantis anywhere close to midfield on Ragnarok it will likely be killed in a few seconds.

 

Instead the Mantis is actually a support vehicle. With an arm mounted machine gun, semi-automatic rocket launcher, and deadly ground pound this may seem hard to imagine but it is the truth. The Mantis in all of it's full glory is reduced to a mere support role. Here's why.

 

~ Chainguns aren't accurate enough to reliably rack up kill unless in close distances.

~ When in close distances you are vulnerable to EMPs, Grenades, hijacking, and ordinance weapons.

~ Rockets Aren't quick enough to take out vehicles at long range with any sort of frequency.

~ Warthogs, Mongooses, Ghosts, and Banshees all have the mobility and agility to escape the Mantis.

 

So when you look at it the Mantis isn't really able to get in a position where it is able to rack up a good amount of kills without putting itself at a serious risk. The result of that is to just hang back with the Mantis and put damage on enemies wherever you can for teammates to rack up the easy assist, but mostly to be a prominent threat on the otherside of the hill (I assume we are talking about Ragnarok) to where the enemies cannot invade without taking the Mantis out first.

[Grif.]

1. You forgot about the rocket warthog.

2. The gauss Hog destroys the mantis.

3.A plasma pistol makes using a mantis a challeng and people know what maps the mantis is onso they just use their plasma pistol loadout .

 

I love the mantis but when you use it you have to be careful.

[Vinyl Scratch]

The Mantis is a work of art. So I must disagree with you. However, I have tested Scorpian vs. Mantis and on most occasions, the Mantis won due it's agility.

[Durandal v2]

When 343i made halo 4 they gave everything a strategy. You can kill a mantis with little effort if you know how

[Grif.]

When 343i made halo 4 they gave everything a strategy. You can kill a mantis with little effort if you know how

Thats what i mean it hard to use the mantis unless your team helps you.

[Victory Element]

The mantis can be used very effectively if it has a smart driver and the other team is not communicating. If half of a team can concentrate fire on a mantis, it can easily be overwhelmed. ghosts work as a great distractions that can break mantis shields quickly and keep it spinning in circles. Almost every player has instant access to the plasma pistol to temporarily disable the mantis. Some one can eaily board it when its EMPed, or teams can focus all fire on the mantis and destroy it from mid range. Destroying the mantis relies on pure teamwork

[Grif.]

The mantis can be used very effectively if it has a smart driver and the other team is not communicating. If half of a team can concentrate fire on a mantis, it can easily be overwhelmed. ghosts work as a great distractions that can break mantis shields quickly and keep it spinning in circles. Almost every player has instant access to the plasma pistol to temporarily disable the mantis. Some one can eaily board it when its EMPed, or teams can focus all fire on the mantis and destroy it from mid range. Destroying the mantis relies on pure teamwork

Exactly my point thank you.

[Cortar]

its height

its slow

if u get to close it can find it hard to kill peaple

etc

 

its not op at all

 

Its not that slow, and being taller rather than wider is a good thing. You can hide behind rocks and buildings much easier than the other tanks can.

 

It has a really powerful chain gun and rockets. AND a 1hko AOE stomp... How is that "hard to kill people" with?

 

The balancing present for the Mantis is actually very well done and interesting to look at. The Mantis is not a serious power vehicle unlike some people seem to think. That is why if you take your Mantis anywhere close to midfield on Ragnarok it will likely be killed in a few seconds.

 

You mean if you take any vehicle to midfield without cover its going to die...

Instead the Mantis is actually a support vehicle. With an arm mounted machine gun, semi-automatic rocket launcher, and deadly ground pound this may seem hard to imagine but it is the truth. The Mantis in all of it's full glory is reduced to a mere support role. Here's why.

 

~ Chainguns aren't accurate enough to reliably rack up kill unless in close distances.

~ When in close distances you are vulnerable to EMPs, Grenades, hijacking, and ordinance weapons.

~ Rockets Aren't quick enough to take out vehicles at long range with any sort of frequency.

~ Warthogs, Mongooses, Ghosts, and Banshees all have the mobility and agility to escape the Mantis.

 

So when you look at it the Mantis isn't really able to get in a position where it is able to rack up a good amount of kills without putting itself at a serious risk. The result of that is to just hang back with the Mantis and put damage on enemies wherever you can for teammates to rack up the easy assist, but mostly to be a prominent threat on the otherside of the hill (I assume we are talking about Ragnarok) to where the enemies cannot invade without taking the Mantis out first.

 

All of those things apply to ALL vehicles... And the Mantis has a leg up on all of them because its a 1 person vehicle. Almost every one needs 2 people to be at full power.

 

I could use your exact same argument and argue that the Wraith or Scorpion are "support" vehicles....

 

 

1. You forgot about the rocket warthog.

2. The gauss Hog destroys the mantis.

3.A plasma pistol makes using a mantis a challeng and people know what maps the mantis is onso they just use their plasma pistol loadout .

 

I love the mantis but when you use it you have to be careful.

 

1. True, is it actually on any maps though? I can't remember.

2. Hmmm, its more of a matter of who sees who first. It takes the Guasshog 3 shots to kill the Mantis, but the Mantis's rockets can flip the Hog really easily and kill it just as quickly.

3. Thats irrelevant considering the same applies to ALL vehicles.

 

When 343i made halo 4 they gave everything a strategy. You can kill a mantis with little effort if you know how

 

Which is not the point I was making at all.

 

The mantis can be used very effectively if it has a smart driver and the other team is not communicating. If half of a team can concentrate fire on a mantis, it can easily be overwhelmed. ghosts work as a great distractions that can break mantis shields quickly and keep it spinning in circles. Almost every player has instant access to the plasma pistol to temporarily disable the mantis. Some one can eaily board it when its EMPed, or teams can focus all fire on the mantis and destroy it from mid range. Destroying the mantis relies on pure teamwork

 

Which again, just proves my point. The Mantis is too easy. It has very few drawbacks and takes the entire enemy team to work together to destroy. The other vehicles do not have nearly the same risk vs reward that it does. (it has very low risk and very high reward)

[SatanicBagels]

All of those things apply to ALL vehicles... And the Mantis has a leg up on all of them because its a 1 person vehicle. Almost every one needs 2 people to be at full power.

 

I could use your exact same argument and argue that the Wraith or Scorpion are "support" vehicles....

 

Nope. A Ghost and Warthog can use their agility and speed to escape enemy fire even when they traverse the map all of the way into the enemy base. The Wraith and Scorpion both have enough firepower as well as durability (wraith also has speed) to keep opponents under such distress that they cannot effectively attack the vehicle. The Mantis is the one exception to this rule. The mantis lacks the speed to strafe or escape enemy fire... and doesn't have the long distance firepower to suppress the enemies.

 

Due to the way that it fires the Wraith could be used pretty well as a support vehicle as it's tough to use at incredibly long distances... but the Scorpion is a killing machine. One could say that the Wraith and Scorpion need two people to be at full power... but when you examine the situation closely you should see that they need 2 people to be at around 85% power. Considering the advantage these two vehicles have against the mantis in the majority of situations this is a negligible disadvantage.

[Bloody Initiate]

The Rocket Warthog appears on Vortex in BTB. It's much harder to use than the other hogs, although I believe it could kill a Mantis if the driver and gunner weren't surprised by the Mantis. If both were aware of each other it might be a tradekill, which works out in the Mantis's favor because it only has one life to sacrifice while the Rocket Hog has a minimum of 2. It would be harder to hit a Rocket Hog with the Mantis's rockets than it would be for a Rocket Hog to hit the Mantis with its rockets, but I'm not sure if a full volley from the rocket hog kills a Mantis. If it does then you have a pretty fair match because the Rocket Hog would be high-offense low-defense while the mantis would be low-offense high-defense. If a fully volley from the rocket hog DOESN'T kill a Mantis then the fight would go to the mantis pretty consistently.

 

Also the stomp may be very damaging but you have to get right on the other vehicles to use it. I also don't know if it kills tanks in one hit. Although if you stomped a tank and didn't kill it, you'd both be dead when the tank hit you with its shot. Either way I wouldn't consider it a serious part of the Mantis's arsenal. I've certainly killed and been killed with it, but every situation that you get to use it in is unique and lucky. You're not going to walk up to an enemy vehicle and have any chance of using it, you have your best chances on maps like Meltdown and Shatter where the maps are made up of narrow corridors and vehicles might have to pass you by. The trouble with using those maps as examples is those maps are universally awful for vehicles. Every solid strategy I've heard for the Mantis involves using the stomp only as an extreme last resort, which means it could come up more often if the enemy team is being stupid in the way they're rushing you, but then their behavior not your ability is responsible for the outcome.

[Grif.]

Its not that slow, and being taller rather than wider is a good thing. You can hide behind rocks and buildings much easier than the other tanks can.

 

It has a really powerful chain gun and rockets. AND a 1hko AOE stomp... How is that "hard to kill people" with?

 

[/color]

 

You mean if you take any vehicle to midfield without cover its going to die...

 

 

All of those things apply to ALL vehicles... And the Mantis has a leg up on all of them because its a 1 person vehicle. Almost every one needs 2 people to be at full power.

 

I could use your exact same argument and argue that the Wraith or Scorpion are "support" vehicles....

 

 

 

 

1. True, is it actually on any maps though? I can't remember.

2. Hmmm, its more of a matter of who sees who first. It takes the Guasshog 3 shots to kill the Mantis, but the Mantis's rockets can flip the Hog really easily and kill it just as quickly.

3. Thats irrelevant considering the same applies to ALL vehicles.

 

 

 

Which is not the point I was making at all.

 

 

 

Which again, just proves my point. The Mantis is too easy. It has very few drawbacks and takes the entire enemy team to work together to destroy. The other vehicles do not have nearly the same risk vs reward that it does. (it has very low risk and very high reward)

good observation and i believe that the rocket hog is on the one that has the big building in the middle and has the wraith. And the gauss hog can shoot from VERY far away so it could take out the mantis from a distance but if it got close it would be even.

[Layne Taylor]

A scorpion is powerful enough to do EVERYTHING you need it to. You can be conservative with it and play it as support and rack up a high kill streak and have a gunner for some extra support. It can also be used aggressively to catch up in a close game, and it can do that with only one person operating it; having a gunner would be too risky in that situation because of how exposed they are, and that risks deaths. The tank has been in the Halo universe for some time so it's comfortable for both noobs and veterans alike, but the Mantis is different.

 

The Mantis is solely a support vehicle. The turret on it isn't all that accurate and the rockets are miniscule and are only 5 rockets per reload. Not to mention that it becomes an instant target for all opposing players that spot it, so when that candle burns twice as hot, it lasts half as long, if not less. The Mantis's prescence on the battlefield itself is a huge psych out to the opposing team. If their Mantis driver was an idiot and got destroyed, there is a huge psychological advantage over the other team. That will lead to them scrambling and making mistakes, allowing the rest of the team to pick them off fairly easily. This is still only a support role and 4 out of 5 times, the Mantis driver is going to be stupid about it anyway, therefore, the Mantis is not overpowered.

 

As for the other vehicles in Halo 4, if you hate their durability, enlist in Operator and get wheelman. If they were any stronger, then those with wheelman would absolutely dominate every game and BTB wouldn't be any fun anymore. Vehicles are meant to be instant targets and taken out quickly. Besides, how doesn't love those epic explosions? The vehicles respawn at a fair rate, so it all evens out. If you hate the vehicles, go back to 4 v 4.

[Siubijeni]

In my experience, the Mantis' greatest counter is actually infantry. It's not that hard to sneak up on one in most cases, and in those cases where they actually are protecting it fairly well, a sniper or binary-rifler can take it out without too much trouble.

If a scorpion and mantis were on the same level, the scorpion would certainly take the cake. Think about it. The Mantis is smaller, yes, but it's also quite a bit taller and has difficulty hiding behind the hills and rises that a scorpion can. It CAN crouch, but it moves much slower and is more vulnerable to infantry that way. A mantis has the same profile, basically, from every direction, as well, rendering it fairly easy to predict and hit.

A scorpion, on the other hand, can drive backwards, broadside, or forwards, each of which changes it's profile slightly. By driving backwards and positioning itself behind a ridge, you can bring your cannon into position without exposing much else. And while it may not have the shields that lend the mantis it's long-term durability, in an out-and-out confrontation, it has considerably more armor and staying power.

Furthermore, because the mantis does not have a gunner, its field of view is necessarily limited. By having a gunner on the same console or with a mic, the Scorpion effectively increases his visual radius to 360--perhaps not all at once, but that gunner makes a fairly effective ward against infantry seeking to board. The Mantis, on the other hand, has no such advantage, because being boarded from the front is not so big an advantage as you might think. After all, how often do you see a warthog or scorpion boarded from the front? Boarders usually come from the side or back, seeking to gain that element of surprise, anyway.

As far as it's power goes, when it really comes down to it those rockets are rather slow, and chaingun fairly inaccurate. A gauss hog or scorpion can take a mantis down fairly easily due to their superior effective range, and even a rocket hog or chain hog can harass it from a distance quite effectively. A sniper or binary rifle, with support from one or two DMR/BR/LR/CC users can take one down fairly quickly, as well. And once a plasma pistol gets it, stickies or a boarder can take the Mantis down like a sack of potatoes.

[BaconShelf]

EMP stuns mantis for longer than other vehicles. Add in a few Plasma grenades and its down in seconds.

[Bloody Initiate]

EMP stuns mantis for longer than other vehicles. Add in a few Plasma grenades and its down in seconds.

 

I haven't confirmed this but I definitely feel like it gets stunned longer. I'll have to check that out in forge, even with the wheelman perk I feel like the Mantis gets stunned way longer.

[BaconShelf]

 

 

I haven't confirmed this but I definitely feel like it gets stunned longer. I'll have to check that out in forge, even with the wheelman perk I feel like the Mantis gets stunned way longer.

 

Look on the Halo Wiki article on the Mantis, it confirms it.

[vStealthYx]

it looks fragile and like its arms and gunna snap off