Halo a competitive or noncompetitve game

[Twinreaper]

Does no one read or truly listen to anything I say? Caboose, you post some crap like that right under my post without even acknowledging anything I pointed out. By YOUR standard and feelings, something like pong isn't or can't be competitive because there is no ranking system.

 

Nobody listens or cares...fine. Have it your way, keep bitching and moaning and the rest of the gaming world will keep on laughing at you all. I'm about done with the whole lot of you.

[FleshBack]

 

 

When every other word is misspelled, I can't tell if someone is being serious or just that bad at spelling and I am talking about Caboose. No offense man but read what you are writing. If your English is poor than I can understand.

 

Caboose is British, mang. Don't know if anyone here is ESL.

[Bloody Initiate]

Does no one read or truly listen to anything I say? Caboose, you post some crap like that right under my post without even acknowledging anything I pointed out. By YOUR standard and feelings, something like pong isn't or can't be competitive because there is no ranking system.

 

Nobody listens or cares...fine. Have it your way, keep bitching and moaning and the rest of the gaming world will keep on laughing at you all. I'm about done with the whole lot of you.

 

To ease your nerves I figured the question posed by the thread concerned primarily default Halo 4. When speaking of default Halo 4, you can look at how the game plays and read so far into it, then you kind of run out of game. By that I mean you reach a point of no longer being able to explain outcomes outside of things like "This team got much better ordnance."

 

The only definition I've been able to come up with so far of "being good" at a game is tied to how much you can influence the game within its programmed boundaries. A good player can exert more influence, manifest their will more, etc. That power of control that's possible, combined with the resistance from another player, creates competing powers. That's where I assume this thread's definition of "competitive" comes from.

 

In default Halo 4 the amount of influence you can exert is decreased and so you just sort of need more players to help you, which is still very competitive, especially so when you consider that team play is what the finest Halo players possess. However when you're looking at your individual ability to influence the game, to get "good," and to compete against players doing the same thing, that's where questions like this thread's come from *I think*.

 

As for competitive spirit, etc., you're right that's all stuff you bring to the game. You can make game settings and such that allow for more and more nuanced plays, but default Halo 4 is a bit light on those depths.

 

There's a good reason the first thing I did in my post was define the term as I was going to use it, because without doing that you can go in all kinds of semantic directions.

[Vaulting♥Frog]

To ease your nerves I figured the question posed by the thread concerned primarily default Halo 4. When speaking of default Halo 4, you can look at how the game plays and read so far into it, then you kind of run out of game. By that I mean you reach a point of no longer being able to explain outcomes outside of things like "This team got much better ordnance."

 

The only definition I've been able to come up with so far of "being good" at a game is tied to how much you can influence the game within its programmed boundaries. A good player can exert more influence, manifest their will more, etc. That power of control that's possible, combined with the resistance from another player, creates competing powers. That's where I assume this thread's definition of "competitive" comes from.

 

In default Halo 4 the amount of influence you can exert is decreased and so you just sort of need more players to help you, which is still very competitive, especially so when you consider that team play is what the finest Halo players possess. However when you're looking at your individual ability to influence the game, to get "good," and to compete against players doing the same thing, that's where questions like this thread's come from *I think*.

 

As for competitive spirit, etc., you're right that's all stuff you bring to the game. You can make game settings and such that allow for more and more nuanced plays, but default Halo 4 is a bit light on those depths.

 

There's a good reason the first thing I did in my post was define the term as I was going to use it, because without doing that you can go in all kinds of semantic directions.

 

I think it is the exact opposite. You have more tools at your disposal, more than ever before. That means new options that people have never considered before. New ways to tackle challenges. More way to influence the field of combat in a way that favors you and your team. Its how the player is able to multitask their mind on each of these tools that makes it successful. For some it is too complex (yet even then they can be successful players in their own right) and for others it is just right. Yet still others have issue with it being too little (I speak of my views for the armor unlocks).

 

Team play is encouraged to nearly an extreme in Halo 4 but that isnt a bad thing to me. Paired along side all the new tools at an individual players disposal and you come up with one heck of a formidable combo.

[Ryu♥Hayabusa]

Twinreaper is completely right.

 

It's competitive, but not full of incentives to make people competitive. See, with opposing teams a game is automatically competitive. Halo 1 is considered competitive with no ranking system. If you say Halo 1 is competitive, I'd love to hear a reason why anyone can even say Halo 4 isn't. Simple as that.

 

A game is competitive with opposing sides, but isn't your fouled definition of competitive if it lacks incentives. So it isn't...interesting shall we call it?

Edited February 7, 2013 by Ryu♥Hayabusa

[Bloody Initiate]

I think it is the exact opposite. You have more tools at your disposal, more than ever before. That means new options that people have never considered before. New ways to tackle challenges.

 

You have more tools, but so do the other players, and some of those tools are just plain better than other, so you actually end up with about the same amount of tools.

 

"What?"

 

Here's an example: DMR > Carbine & BR

 

Thus you have 3 marksman rifles boiled down to one because that one is better than the other two, making them largely irrelevant.

 

Here's another example:

 

Incineration Cannon on Solace. You can move across the entire map without ever getting spotted or shot by another player due to the high cover on the map and the separation of levels. Thus you can grab the incineration cannon, sprint across the map unmolested, and then be within "auto-win" range with your cannon. That may seem like the incineration guy simply made the smarter play, but I hope you'll agree that "grab launcher and run toward enemy" isn't really a very smart play even if it IS the smartER play.

 

In this scenario your teamshot and callouts did you very little good, calling the guy out was unlikely since he can move across the map w/o camo unseen, he can sprint, and you couldn't have shot him anyway.

 

I don't have any problem with the incineration cannon on Solace, I'm just illustrating how the winning play isn't always the most intellectual or strategically complex.

 

Lets continue with the examples:

 

Now you have camo as part of your loadout, you get some assists in Big Team, and now you gain the same incineration cannon from ordnance. Or a sniper rifle. Who knows? Or you just have your DMR, and the other guy gets the free sniper rifle.

 

Let's say you and I are on opposite teams, you score 70 points by jumping for the hill on Ragnarok and beating back my teammates with mad DMR skills. Your ordnance: Gravity Hammer, Speed Boost, Frag Grenades. You won't get another ordnance until 90 points I think.

 

I hang back in my base, preferring not to expose myself too much because I'm a coward with a miserable strafe and DMR skills that only exist when I keep absolutely still and aim through my scope. I don't get as many points as fast as you do because I'm not very good, but I get a lucky break or two and kill a guy while reloading, and only slightly later in the game I have a beam rifle from my ordnance.

 

Not only that, but some of my guys have been picking up kills from a distance with THEIR DMRs too, and they have sniper rifles and beam rifles too. They were luckier than you, so was I. Your teammates got roughly the same ordnance quality you did. We got it later because we're not quite as awesome, but from a distance we find our sniper weapons very easy to use with our camo, and suddenly your team has lost the lead and has to push to gain points, because we sure as hell aren't pushing anymore.

 

Some more examples:

 

You are an excellent ghost pilot, an even better banshee pilot, and generally a well-rounded vehicle operator. You aren't the best by any means and you're OK with that, because you know your team can count on you to stay solid in whatever vehicle you get.

 

However those vehicles are very easy to spot and can be quickly sniped apart by people DMRing you at a safe distance, and this is what happens much of the time in fact. Life tends to be over within a minute or two in most vehicles, often before you've made a run worth your while, and life is even shorter when people use something other than DMRs.

 

 

You have just out-DMRed me very handily on Haven. You recognize you have to take cover to get your shields back, and you avoid combat because you know better than to go for a fight while weakened. Luckily for me, I spawned behind you and headshot you freely before your shields even begin to return.

 

 

You and your team are killing your way through my team, and you killed me twice already. For some reason though I spawn in the midst of the brawl and 5-shot you before you can say "WTF." I then die too, but you can't help but wonder why I spawned in the middle of a fight like that.

 

 

You are excellent with the BR. Top notch, very proud of your skills that you've developed over a long period of hard-earned experience. I however brought a DMR to this fight, and I kill you some tenth of a second before you kill me, even though your shots were perfect.

 

 

You are much better than me at BTB, an astounding Gauss Gunner, a game-changing Scorpion Operator, and a terrifying Banshee pilot. However you spawned Red, and I spawned Blue. On your way to Scorpion I Gauss you.

 

 

 

 

To conclude, the massive variety of tools at your disposal are designed to perform very similarly to each other or to nullify each other.

 

Got Promethean Vision? I got Stealth.

 

Got Grenadier? I got Resupply, and on average they're probably identical.

 

Got a bigger motion tracker? I have one that I can see while I'm looking through a scope.

 

Got Marksman Rifle? Got Automatics?

 

They're all designed to either look like each other or to get nullified.

 

Nice short run to the Scorpion, I have a long run to it but I also have a Gauss Hog. Nah this one doesn't belong here, because having a Gauss Hog is much much MUCH better than having a shorter run to the Scorpion, and any idiot could have told you that.

 

Nice DMR skills, you can kill me but I'll just let you die of old age while you wait for your shield to begin recharging.

 

Got a full party? I got better ordnance. No I didn't work harder for it.

 

Got Halo skills? I got Halo 4.

[TornadoFlame]

You have more tools, but so do the other players, and some of those tools are just plain better than other, so you actually end up with about the same amount of tools.

 

"What?"

 

Here's an example: DMR > Carbine & BR

 

Thus you have 3 marksman rifles boiled down to one because that one is better than the other two, making them largely irrelevant.

 

Here's another example:

 

Incineration Cannon on Solace. You can move across the entire map without ever getting spotted or shot by another player due to the high cover on the map and the separation of levels. Thus you can grab the incineration cannon, sprint across the map unmolested, and then be within "auto-win" range with your cannon. That may seem like the incineration guy simply made the smarter play, but I hope you'll agree that "grab launcher and run toward enemy" isn't really a very smart play even if it IS the smartER play.

 

In this scenario your teamshot and callouts did you very little good, calling the guy out was unlikely since he can move across the map w/o camo unseen, he can sprint, and you couldn't have shot him anyway.

 

I don't have any problem with the incineration cannon on Solace, I'm just illustrating how the winning play isn't always the most intellectual or strategically complex.

 

Lets continue with the examples:

 

Now you have camo as part of your loadout, you get some assists in Big Team, and now you gain the same incineration cannon from ordnance. Or a sniper rifle. Who knows? Or you just have your DMR, and the other guy gets the free sniper rifle.

 

Let's say you and I are on opposite teams, you score 70 points by jumping for the hill on Ragnarok and beating back my teammates with mad DMR skills. Your ordnance: Gravity Hammer, Speed Boost, Frag Grenades. You won't get another ordnance until 90 points I think.

 

I hang back in my base, preferring not to expose myself too much because I'm a coward with a miserable strafe and DMR skills that only exist when I keep absolutely still and aim through my scope. I don't get as many points as fast as you do because I'm not very good, but I get a lucky break or two and kill a guy while reloading, and only slightly later in the game I have a beam rifle from my ordnance.

 

Not only that, but some of my guys have been picking up kills from a distance with THEIR DMRs too, and they have sniper rifles and beam rifles too. They were luckier than you, so was I. Your teammates got roughly the same ordnance quality you did. We got it later because we're not quite as awesome, but from a distance we find our sniper weapons very easy to use with our camo, and suddenly your team has lost the lead and has to push to gain points, because we sure as hell aren't pushing anymore.

 

Some more examples:

 

You are an excellent ghost pilot, an even better banshee pilot, and generally a well-rounded vehicle operator. You aren't the best by any means and you're OK with that, because you know your team can count on you to stay solid in whatever vehicle you get.

 

However those vehicles are very easy to spot and can be quickly sniped apart by people DMRing you at a safe distance, and this is what happens much of the time in fact. Life tends to be over within a minute or two in most vehicles, often before you've made a run worth your while, and life is even shorter when people use something other than DMRs.

 

 

You have just out-DMRed me very handily on Haven. You recognize you have to take cover to get your shields back, and you avoid combat because you know better than to go for a fight while weakened. Luckily for me, I spawned behind you and headshot you freely before your shields even begin to return.

 

 

You and your team are killing your way through my team, and you killed me twice already. For some reason though I spawn in the midst of the brawl and 5-shot you before you can say "WTF." I then die too, but you can't help but wonder why I spawned in the middle of a fight like that.

 

 

You are excellent with the BR. Top notch, very proud of your skills that you've developed over a long period of hard-earned experience. I however brought a DMR to this fight, and I kill you some tenth of a second before you kill me, even though your shots were perfect.

 

 

You are much better than me at BTB, an astounding Gauss Gunner, a game-changing Scorpion Operator, and a terrifying Banshee pilot. However you spawned Red, and I spawned Blue. On your way to Scorpion I Gauss you.

 

 

 

 

To conclude, the massive variety of tools at your disposal are designed to perform very similarly to each other or to nullify each other.

 

Got Promethean Vision? I got Stealth.

 

Got Grenadier? I got Resupply, and on average they're probably identical.

 

Got a bigger motion tracker? I have one that I can see while I'm looking through a scope.

 

Got Marksman Rifle? Got Automatics?

 

They're all designed to either look like each other or to get nullified.

 

Nice short run to the Scorpion, I have a long run to it but I also have a Gauss Hog. Nah this one doesn't belong here, because having a Gauss Hog is much much MUCH better than having a shorter run to the Scorpion, and any idiot could have told you that.

 

Nice DMR skills, you can kill me but I'll just let you die of old age while you wait for your shield to begin recharging.

 

Got a full party? I got better ordnance. No I didn't work harder for it.

 

Got Halo skills? I got Halo 4.

Like X100 I'm tempted to make a 15 minutes youtube video just of this because it happens each and every game.

[Vaulting♥Frog]

*snip

 

I read your post and you make a compelling arguement, however it doesnt sway me. My opinion is my opinion. I am not saying your wrong and I am not saying I am right. I am saying we are different in our views.

 

I find there is a huge amount of skill involved in being successful with Halo 4. I find that with all the tools each player has there are more tactical choices you have to make. Things you have to be aware of that could possibly counter whatever it is you are trying to set yourself up for. Frankly there are just more things to keep track of in general which pushes players to their limits (well at least it pushes me). I see this as a good thing. Its a new skill set to master instead of an old one which people already have established patterns and where no actual growth in the community (in terms of "skill" [i hate that word but I have to use it]).

 

I wont go into the Gauss thing with you because quite frankly I agree, it is a poor spawn for such a powerful vehicle. Actually I wont go into detail with any of it because quite frankly it would be fruitless for both of us and is just a waste of time.

 

I am just going to end my post with this: The old order of "skill" from Halo 3 is gone in Halo 4 and I find that to be a good thing. Something new to master, new to toy with and a great baseline to build upon for the new series.

[Bloody Initiate]

Actually I agree in part, there was another thread where people started talking quite a bit about the "skill gap" being smaller and what has actually happened is it has gotten smaller for some skills and larger for others.

 

You said the game was more "tactical" and to an extent I agree, specifically I feel like team play is more important than ever before because it is discouraged more than ever before. Without tools to assist players w/o mics like the Red X, players have to work even harder to work as a team, and players who do can frequently bowl over players who don't with astounding ease. Thus the "skill gap" for teamplay in smaller playlists seems to have grown. Of course I play with one or two deaf players every now and then, so they're screwed, but that's Halo 4.

 

There is actually less room for tactical play in BTB though, because ordnance in BTB is so much better than it is in smaller playlists. It's still important to play as a team, but a good team really can be crushed by bad luck with ordnance, and I don't personally think that is any kind of good game design. I play with a team, and while it's debatable whether we're any good, I see on multiple occasions how much more important ordnance is than almost anything else. It's most apparent on maps like Longbow and Ragnarok, where most of the players are on foot and so are using their Ordnance. If Exile weren't so ridiculously imbalanced you might be able to pay attention to whether ordnance is affecting the outcome, but most of the time on Exile you're just focused on keeping control or gaining control of Gauss spawn, and keeping your head down when someone else is rolling the heavy vehicles.

 

There is also a much smaller skill gap when it comes to just running around killing people on foot, in BTB and in smaller playlists, because the individual spartan is much weaker. Your shields get wiped out fast, your weapons take more shots to kill and reload more often (They kill faster, but taking more shots is a kind of nasty I've explained in other places), you're slow (Sprint doesn't matter because you get slowed by shots while sprinting, effectively making you easier to kill when you're sprinting because you're slowed down AND your gun is lowered), and the weapons are extremely easy to use (Hitscan is a big contributer, perfect accuracy is another).

 

Thus in smaller maps I find any strategy that doesn't involve sticking to my team like glue has zero consistency, and in Big Team I find that I feel like I did in Reach: If you don't have a sniper rifle or a vehicle you just don't have anything to live for. Without one of those things to skew the odds in your favor you're either getting most of your kills off of people who aren't fighting back or you're running a high risk with each fight. That can be very frustrating to players who built their skillset around being reliable with a DMR/BR, because we step out to fight and we find even fights we win nearly killing us. That doesn't feel good, and it definitely doesn't feel right.

 

So I will definitely agree that team work and communication are more important than ever before, largely because halo 4 provides very little programmed support for them so you're gaining an advantage that people without mics can't account for in any way. However sometimes good teamwork gets crushed by good ordnance (Most often in BTB, small maps don't have good enough ordnance to swerve the outcome of a game usually), and sometimes it would be nice if you didn't have to feel like a lost duckling every time you're more than a few feet away from your team. It would be especially nice if little details with massive repercussions were improved, like the insane shield recharge delay which stunts gameplay at every level in every playlist and game mode (aside from SWAT of course).

 

Whenever I am killed by someone who had nothing to do with damaging me, or I have to listen to may team's sighs of frustration because they don't realize the game has simply decided the other team should win via ordnance and they think THEY'RE making mistakes, or I see Exile ever, or I barely survive the attention of 1-2 foot soldiers because I'm in a lowly vehicle and they have DMRs + plasma pistols & grenades, or I need my shields back and I can't find ANYWHERE on Halo 4 small maps to hide for 6 seconds, or I get a bad ordnance selection (At least once every game of slayer I play, no exaggeration), or someone gets to twitch-shot me at extreme long range due to hitscan weapons with high bullet magnetism, or any of the many things that make me feel completely irrelevant on the battle field and like I have no power to influence the outcome of the game or my lives within it, I get mad and I think this game simply doesn't allow for the higher levels of "good" because even when I'm playing well I find myself crippled and beaten down by the game. I'm not always playing well, and I'm painfully aware of mistakes I make that cost me my life or even as little as a kill. I can own up to those and admit my faults and accept that I'm not the best player ever, but sometimes it's frustrating to feel like you can't even get good at a game, not because you're missing something, but because the game just doesn't allow it in general.

 

That's why people feel it's less competitive, because for a lone foot soldier it IS less competitive, and it may surprise many people to discover that was the majority of Halo's population. Unlike people say, it was never a bunch of teams having awesome close matches against each other all the time (Unless you were at the very highest levels), it was randoms making up most of the population. It's much worse to be a random in Halo 4, because your ability to influence the game - your ability to get "good" at the game" - is much more limited than ever before and much more dependent on you bringing friends. You aren't important or special to your team, what's important is that you have a team and you better hope you get good ordnance in BTB slayer.

 

There are plenty of peole who play with teams and feel differently than I do, but what they might not be realizing WITH their team is just how hard it sucks to be without one in Halo 4. Or even when you're on one it sucks REAL bad to be away from them on the map (Unless you're just away from EVERYONE with a sniper rifle). Or when you're with one it sucks real bad to get crap ordnance and then have the collective frustration of losing a game where you pushed properly, gained map control, maintained your positions and teamshot, and just couldn't get the ordnance to make it count.

[AnimalDenWinter]

it depends because some people make stupid rules on customs 

[Halogeek99]

H4 on par with H3 for competitiveness. If not MORE competitive.

 

Mainly because of upped tempo and movement.

[Mike Foster]

The only thing that makes any game competitive is the score. People have been competing in games since the golden days of Centipede, Donkey Kong, and Pac-Man. Competition in gaming begins and ends with the player finding a way to do this within the game's design.

 

I really hope they don't bring back a visible ranking system. I don't see how having that makes things competitive when the game becomes compromised with boosters/bought accounts (who aren't as good at the number suggests), increased rage-quitting (gotta preserve those false stats), and de-rankers (who screw over your team intentionally). Yeah, no thanks.

[Halogeek99]

Hey Bloody Initiate. I read your posts here and I actually agree with some of your conclusions. Like your posts too Vaulting Frog. I think you hit the hammer on the nail so to speak. Constructive posts dudes!

[AnimalDenWinter]

It doesn't matter if the game isn't competitive itself: it matters if lot's of people play competitive!! Halo 4 is definitely competitive: have you seen the MLG's play it, they use team-work, communications and lots of different skill. Maybe everybody you play doesn't play like they should be doing. Or you don't play right yourself. If I agreed with your opinion,

I'd say the one game-type that is competitive is Team-Doubles Pro.

[Frankenzer]

All are competitive for me. If you're really an expert you can challenge yourself like killing all enemies with nothing but a pistol melee or something like that

[Hector Jesus Acevedo]

At this very moment Halo 4, in my opinion, is not competitive at all. There are WAY too many "cheesy" tactics that can be used which, although very effective, would diminish the fun aspect if everyone used it. Imagine a game where everyone decides to use Camo while hiding with a Boltshot or Shotgun.

 

There are also no real competitive game modes. At the moment the only numerical value we place importance on is our KDA ratio which isn't even publicly displayed. In order for Halo 4 to be taken seriously as a competitive game (maybe even e-sport level) would be to add some sort of visible ranking system. In LoL (a completely different type of game, I know) there was Elo which was visible to everyone. Only the game mode called "ranked" would be able to bring your elo up or down while all others would only change your invisible Elo that's only used in matchmaking.

 

This link does a much better job at explaining elo than I ever could:

 

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Elo_rating_system

 

I firmly believe that once a strong competitive game type is introduced for normal players that eventually we will have plenty of pro teams that could compete on a global scale. I would LOVE to see a strong e-sports presence for Halo. I just started playing it but I already love it. I would love to see it grow on a competitive level.

 

The financial benefits are huge, too, if Halo grows as an e-sport. Not only can 343 make money off of tournaments, but streamers could making a living off of their streams. Top Halo 4 streams have only a few hundred viewers while top LoL streams have thousands. That's a lot of money!

 

 

[Halogeek99]

Do you think pro players care a rats ass about rank? They dont.

[Hector Jesus Acevedo]

Do you think pro players care a rats *** about rank? They dont.

 

That is absolutely correct. Do you think pro players will give a rats ass when they have over 1k viewers, all of them watching to see what they do right. You bet your ass they will.

[PHIL0S0PHY]

Halo has something for everyone, competitive, casual, forging, machinima, campaign, racing, grifball, flood, firefight, even the nodding community.