Possible Warthog Improvements

[DracoAvian]

I've been considering myself a warthog wheelman since the hey-days of Halo 3. I've driven the Warthogs a fair amount of time in both CE and H2. My favorite iteration of the Warthog was seen in Halo 3. It was powerful and an asset to the team. It could transport teammates towards vehicle and heavy weapon spawns. It could provide transport for objective runners. It could keep enemies on foot from storming across the map. It was also far from invincible. Guys toting around splasers, ambushing choppers, and the occasional guy with a plasma pistol and stickies, and the always equal parts terrifying and hilarious gravity hammer charge could end your run really quickly. I'm telling you all this because I feel that I have at least a decent grasp of what would constitute a decent "medium vehicle" build. Keep in mind that I believe the Warthog should be considered a power weapon in its own right. It spawns on the map, it can be used by either team, and it can be lost. I believe it should be useful in the hands of amateurs, but deadly in the hands of veterans. Well, here I go.

 

Problems with Warthogs in General

As it stands Warthogs are extremely vulnerable and only marginally useful as a rapid insertion or extraction vehicle. Many, myself included, call them rolling double kills. There are a few reasons, that I see, that make this the case. There also stands the case of the Warthog's major audio and visual makeover from Halo 3. In my opinion, this also attributes to the vehicle's ineffectiveness.

 

-With the addition of load outs (A fine addition in my opinion. Well done on that front, 343.) the game changed drastically. Now, when one makes such a substantial change to a game there will be unforeseen consequences. The ability of a player to spawn with sticky grenades and a plasma pistol has had a profound effect on the survivability of Warthog crews. H3's Valhalla had two plasma pistol spawns and a couple of plasma grenades in each base. If used improperly then the weapons would be lost and a Warthog would have a window of opportunity in which they could engage the enemy team with little worry of retribution. Eventually that window would close and a reckless Warthog crew could again be attacked on the terms of the enemy team.

As it stands the ability to spawn with sticky grenades and a plasma pistol effectively negates the impact a skillful warthog team can have on a match. A warthog team will always be on the defensive and never on the offensive.

 

-Warthogs seem to have less mass than their H3 or Reach counterparts. This statement could be true, or an effect of a great many changes in engine and perspective (as we saw from the warthog top speeds moving from H3 to Reach). I come to this conclusion because of the effect small arms have on the vehicle physically. I'm sure other experienced drivers found the H5 Warthogs to be nearly uncontrollable under fire. I do not believe this phenomenon can be solely attributed to the inexperience of drivers. In my experience a few rounds from a DMR will can cause a Warthog to flip during a sharp turn. In addition, splattering enemies seems an unreliable tactic at best, although this may be in part to web coding, latency, or some other unseen reason. I believe it at least warrants further testing and investigation.

As it stands I believe that an unreasonable amount of force is applied against Warthogs by loud out weapons. I additionally believe that warthogs do not impart enough force upon other objects during a collision. This makes driving the Warthog unrewarding experience even for the most skillful of wheelmen.

 

-I believe that the effectiveness (and the effects) of weapons against vehicles should be given a great deal of thought, if not overhauled entirely. In my opinion weapons such as the rail gun and concussion rifle should be of a greater threat to warthog crews than load out weapons. Whilst anti-vehicle/material weapons destroy Warthogs with impunity (as they rightfully should), load out weapons impart what I believe to be is an unreasonable amount of damage.

As it stands I believe that load out weapons deal too much damage to warthogs. This does not offer any profound risk/reward decisions regarding movement or power weapon acquisition when deciding to deal with an enemy Warthog. This means that the threat or actuality of a skilled Warthog team does not affect the game in a meaningful manner.

 

-Whilst this isn't a "true" issue one can see, hear, and feel the subtle differences of the Warthog coming into H4. I've been in love with the warthog for a long time and I honestly believe that the visual changes on the warthog are nice, but saying I like the new "threads" sounds like I didn't love what it looked like earlier. I like both. Really! I'm not saying they should have both in the game... It may get confusing and I like a certain amount of... everything looking the part. A sort of a general overarching art design to the game (Collectiveness?) I don't think that having both models would be able to achieve that. What I'm trying to say is that it isn't the looks that count. I'm saying the most important part is personality.

As it stands I do not believe the warthog is adequately portrayed as the beefy, throaty, off-roading, military beast it is. This detracts from the fundamental joy players receive from simply jumping into the driver's seat and hearing the Warthog's Machine Spirit awaken and prepare itself for glorious combat!

 

Possible Improvements to Warthogs in General

-I believe that giving the Warthog substantial armor against load out weapons would go a long way towards increasing the survivability of a warthog under fire. This would still leave the warthog vulnerable to heavy weapons and as such remain a balanced part of the game. The increased survivability would allow the warthog to have an appreciable effect in the game and thus restore the natural order.

-I believe that an increase of the Warthog's mass would have a threefold affect. It would decrease the effect small arms has on handling, help to make the effects of a collision with a player more consistent (and by that I mean dying horribly like the jay-walking idiot he is), and help to restore the "off-roady" feel of the warthog.

-I believe that the effect of weapons on warthogs should be fine-tuned if not overhauled. Medium level weapons like the rail gun should be a tool with which to engage a Warthog while Anti-Vehicle/Material weapons should pose an immediate threat. Load out weapons should be considered negligible except when used to engage exposed personnel.

-Again, not a true improvement, but I want the Warthog to feel like the Warthog again. Look at what a simple sound overhaul did for the AR in Reach. It went from next to worthless in H3 to useful in Reach.

 

Possible Improvements to Warthog Variants

This next section is the product of a conversation my long-term gunner and I had a while ago. We were thinking about how to better balance the warthogs after going 40-something and zero in the gauss 'Hog. Effective, but in our opinion that kind of score was on the ridiculous side of things. We came to the conclusion that while each variant should be able to engage all targets, each should outclass the others at engaging a single type of enemy the archetypes we decided on were a Gun 'Hog vs. Infantry, a Gauss 'Hog vs. land vehicles, and a Rocket 'Hog vs. air vehicles. The following are some ideas we came up with during that conversation.

 

-The Chain Gun Warthog AKA Gun 'Hog has a few odd things about it. I believe the gun overheats too quickly to effectively deal with groups larger than two enemies. It used to be that groups of any size caught in the open by 'Hogs were slaughtered. Smarter players on foot used cover and size to their advantage to evade the Warthog team. This also means that smarter players in H4 simply cannot be engaged effectively by Gun 'Hog crews because of the extremely finite amount of ammunition they can put downrange in a given firefight.

As it stands I believe that the chain gun on the warthog should overheat less quickly. Accounting for the increased survivability idea that I wrote about earlier, this should allow a Gun 'Hog team to engage multiply exposed targets effectively and engage targets in cover with a small degree of success. With a greater longevity of fire the warthog would be considerably more effective at pinning enemies down and supporting teammates.

 

-The Gauss Warthog AKA Gauss 'Hog is pretty powerful as it stands. In my opinion it is both too fragile and too lethal. A skilled team can engage and kill targets at any range. Whilst I believe the Gauss 'Hog should fulfill some sort of sniper-esque role, I do not think that it should be so wildly effective against infantry. I read a thread that had the idea of making it function similarly to the rail gun, but I can't take credit for it. It is an idea that merits further thought though.

As it stands I believe the Gauss 'Hog is too effective against both infantry and vehicles. The addition of an overheating mechanic would serve to alleviate the 'Hogs massive firepower. After two or three shots in rapid succession enemies could engage or maneuver with relative safety while the gauss cannon cools down.

 

-The Rocket Warthog AKA Rocket 'Hog is incredibly chaotic. With the occasion of the occasional lucky hit the Rocket 'Hog is the least powerful and most vulnerable of the 'Hog Variants. It doesn't even fulfill the role of AA especially well. After the Warthog fires off its volley (which is completely capable of destroying itself) it faces a very long reload time.

As it stands I believe that if the Hog's Rocket Pods functioned identically to the Mantis's Rocket Pods it would make the Rocket 'Hog a valuable commodity. A skilled 'Hog crew could time their attack run precisely. Charged up rockets would be unloaded at a faster rate than what is current, meaning less scatter due to the 'Hog's movement. They could also engage single targets without leaving themselves completely defenseless. In addition a lock-on mechanic vs. air vehicles means the 'Hog can engage air vehicles with a degree of effectiveness.

 

Any thoughts? Discussion is appreciated.

[Composite Armour]

Removing loadouts is the way to go.

The ability to deal with early game warthogs and other vehicles should be a resources, not a given.

[BaconShelf]

I'm skipping to turrets as I agree with most of your points above.

 

Chaingun should be an anti-infantry turret. Not amazing against vehicles but devastating to infantry.

IMO, the gun itself needs a longer overheat(Reach/gunner support upgrade style) so you can kill stuff. The accuracy needs to be drastically improved as the current cant even hit anything. The range also needs an improvement.

 

Guass should be Anti-vehicle. Good at long ranges and armour but not against aircraft and infantry. The accuracy needs to decrease at closer ranges (which don't matter against vehicles anyway) and just be less effective on infantry in general.

 

Rocket should be AA. The lock on should return to 3's missile pod/REACH rockets style. So you know you have locked.

 

The tickets should travel faster too, with a charge up enabled. One feature I would enjoy is firing one rocket at once, and charging it to fire all six.

[Victory Element]

I agree with everything said above

[A6ENT of CHA0S]

I agree with everything you pointed out. The trio of Warthog variants are designed to fill these roles, but poor execution makes a lackluster outcome. I personally found the H3-era Warthog to be what I consider "definitive". It was fast, versatile, rugged, and fairly durable, but had an ample amount of various threats (rather than just PP and grenades). Best of all, it felt solid, yet had fluid movements, whereas the current H4 'Hog is rather stiff and not as intimidating as the previous iterations. I do think that you're onto something in terms of which weapons should deal comparatively threatening damage. I, however, am personally against the inclusion of loadouts and preferred the classic gameplay mechanics of scavenging for weapons on the map. It added more depth to the maps in general and rewarded those of us who were smart and swift enough to get the power weapons and use them effectively. Nowadays, gameplay is too repetitive, seeing people with the exotic Covenant/Forerunner weapons in their hands at spawn lessens the experience of using them. It also seems to harm the weapon balancing, as when you can use these weapons at spawn, they can only be so powerful... I also must admit that I don't care much for the new 'Hog chaingun's reticule, preferring the circle target used in all previous Halos. Over-heating, while not necessarily a bad addition, is too severe for it to be effective and a significant threat/able to aptly defend itself when impaired by an EMP. Again, the concept of the Warthog has (hopefully) not changed, but the realization of such a concept determines its success.

[spartan_j03]

it totally hear you on all of those points (well done by the way), but i just have 3 words for you: Gauss Hog + gunner. that or survivor. on a regular basis, me and my budy would grab the gauss hog first thing every match we play that has one. he drives with wheelman and survivor, and i gun with either or (since you cant have both). my point being; he and i have gone entire games without losing more than 2 hogs, and we wipped most of the enemy team too! lol. ive gone 35-4 gunning on a guass or rocket hog. my point is, if your reflexes are good enough, you can slaughter with one of those hogs despite being assaulted by anti vehicle weapons. a couple of times, we would get stalled out and surrounded by guys with p-nades, but we survived because i was able to blast them all before they could complete their throw...lol i think most of the enemy team that game quite early...

[xbone4life]

it totally hear you on all of those points (well done by the way), but i just have 3 words for you: Gauss Hog + gunner. that or survivor. on a regular basis, me and my budy would grab the gauss hog first thing every match we play that has one. he drives with wheelman and survivor, and i gun with either or (since you cant have both). my point being; he and i have gone entire games without losing more than 2 hogs, and we wipped most of the enemy team too! lol. ive gone 35-4 gunning on a guass or rocket hog. my point is, if your reflexes are good enough, you can slaughter with one of those hogs despite being assaulted by anti vehicle weapons. a couple of times, we would get stalled out and surrounded by guys with p-nades, but we survived because i was able to blast them all before they could complete their throw...lol i think most of the enemy team that game quite early...

 

i hate how long it takes to lock on to a banshee it takes 10 seconds and the banshee always uses boost which means they can get away.

[spartan_j03]

i hate how long it takes to lock on to a banshee it takes 10 seconds and the banshee always uses boost which means they can get away.

i 2nd that completly. the rocket hog is next to useless unless the banshee pilot really sucks, or your driver can keep you really stable (and keep up with the banshee). it wouldnt be so bad except that for ten seconds, the enemy banshee hears this dumb warning alarm that gives people WAY too much heads up.

[DracoAvian]

Yeah... I've gone 30 something before in guass hogs as well. I'd probably have a few perfection medals if wheelman sprees in big team games counted towards them.

 

My point is that I don't like how the gauss hog is the only thing that works. And it works too well. It is a sniper with unlimited ammo. A sniper that can shoot through walls and is effective at every range. As long as they aren't spawing next to you, anything within your line of sight is as good as dead. Which is why I think it would be better as an anti-armor variant.

[Buns]

I agree chaingun hogs don't feel as dominant as they used too. Loadouts are great and the PP for secondary slot ain't that bad it's just the Plasma Nades that are a big problem. Although Rocket and Gauss hogs are really annoying and frustrating to deal with because how easily they destroy infantry

[DracoAvian]

Although I agree that stickies are a huge problem, I still think plasma pistols 'en masse' is still a problem as well. I think the problem lies in that you can have as many plasma pistols as you have lives and teammates. And when you spawn with them you don't have to expend any time to retrieve them. You can just die, respawn, switch to secondary, and shoot more overcharges.

[Sadly Just AL]

A larger resistance to plasma grenades should be implemented, since two would take about a hog or just it's passengers. And the plasma grenades in the loadout are a bit of a slap and the fun is simply gone. I also support the idea of the off road feel, it was so much more maneuverable and actually felt like it would last, while now you can get taken out instantly.  

[Son Of Anarchy]

I've been considering myself a warthog wheelman since the hey-days of Halo 3. I've driven the Warthogs a fair amount of time in both CE and H2. My favorite iteration of the Warthog was seen in Halo 3. It was powerful and an asset to the team. It could transport teammates towards vehicle and heavy weapon spawns. It could provide transport for objective runners. It could keep enemies on foot from storming across the map. It was also far from invincible. Guys toting around splasers, ambushing choppers, and the occasional guy with a plasma pistol and stickies, and the always equal parts terrifying and hilarious gravity hammer charge could end your run really quickly. I'm telling you all this because I feel that I have at least a decent grasp of what would constitute a decent "medium vehicle" build. Keep in mind that I believe the Warthog should be considered a power weapon in its own right. It spawns on the map, it can be used by either team, and it can be lost. I believe it should be useful in the hands of amateurs, but deadly in the hands of veterans. Well, here I go.

 

Problems with Warthogs in General

As it stands Warthogs are extremely vulnerable and only marginally useful as a rapid insertion or extraction vehicle. Many, myself included, call them rolling double kills. There are a few reasons, that I see, that make this the case. There also stands the case of the Warthog's major audio and visual makeover from Halo 3. In my opinion, this also attributes to the vehicle's ineffectiveness.

 

-With the addition of load outs (A fine addition in my opinion. Well done on that front, 343.) the game changed drastically. Now, when one makes such a substantial change to a game there will be unforeseen consequences. The ability of a player to spawn with sticky grenades and a plasma pistol has had a profound effect on the survivability of Warthog crews. H3's Valhalla had two plasma pistol spawns and a couple of plasma grenades in each base. If used improperly then the weapons would be lost and a Warthog would have a window of opportunity in which they could engage the enemy team with little worry of retribution. Eventually that window would close and a reckless Warthog crew could again be attacked on the terms of the enemy team.

As it stands the ability to spawn with sticky grenades and a plasma pistol effectively negates the impact a skillful warthog team can have on a match. A warthog team will always be on the defensive and never on the offensive.

 

-Warthogs seem to have less mass than their H3 or Reach counterparts. This statement could be true, or an effect of a great many changes in engine and perspective (as we saw from the warthog top speeds moving from H3 to Reach). I come to this conclusion because of the effect small arms have on the vehicle physically. I'm sure other experienced drivers found the H5 Warthogs to be nearly uncontrollable under fire. I do not believe this phenomenon can be solely attributed to the inexperience of drivers. In my experience a few rounds from a DMR will can cause a Warthog to flip during a sharp turn. In addition, splattering enemies seems an unreliable tactic at best, although this may be in part to web coding, latency, or some other unseen reason. I believe it at least warrants further testing and investigation.

As it stands I believe that an unreasonable amount of force is applied against Warthogs by loud out weapons. I additionally believe that warthogs do not impart enough force upon other objects during a collision. This makes driving the Warthog unrewarding experience even for the most skillful of wheelmen.

 

-I believe that the effectiveness (and the effects) of weapons against vehicles should be given a great deal of thought, if not overhauled entirely. In my opinion weapons such as the rail gun and concussion rifle should be of a greater threat to warthog crews than load out weapons. Whilst anti-vehicle/material weapons destroy Warthogs with impunity (as they rightfully should), load out weapons impart what I believe to be is an unreasonable amount of damage.

As it stands I believe that load out weapons deal too much damage to warthogs. This does not offer any profound risk/reward decisions regarding movement or power weapon acquisition when deciding to deal with an enemy Warthog. This means that the threat or actuality of a skilled Warthog team does not affect the game in a meaningful manner.

 

-Whilst this isn't a "true" issue one can see, hear, and feel the subtle differences of the Warthog coming into H4. I've been in love with the warthog for a long time and I honestly believe that the visual changes on the warthog are nice, but saying I like the new "threads" sounds like I didn't love what it looked like earlier. I like both. Really! I'm not saying they should have both in the game... It may get confusing and I like a certain amount of... everything looking the part. A sort of a general overarching art design to the game (Collectiveness?) I don't think that having both models would be able to achieve that. What I'm trying to say is that it isn't the looks that count. I'm saying the most important part is personality.

As it stands I do not believe the warthog is adequately portrayed as the beefy, throaty, off-roading, military beast it is. This detracts from the fundamental joy players receive from simply jumping into the driver's seat and hearing the Warthog's Machine Spirit awaken and prepare itself for glorious combat!

 

Possible Improvements to Warthogs in General

-I believe that giving the Warthog substantial armor against load out weapons would go a long way towards increasing the survivability of a warthog under fire. This would still leave the warthog vulnerable to heavy weapons and as such remain a balanced part of the game. The increased survivability would allow the warthog to have an appreciable effect in the game and thus restore the natural order.

-I believe that an increase of the Warthog's mass would have a threefold affect. It would decrease the effect small arms has on handling, help to make the effects of a collision with a player more consistent (and by that I mean dying horribly like the jay-walking idiot he is), and help to restore the "off-roady" feel of the warthog.

-I believe that the effect of weapons on warthogs should be fine-tuned if not overhauled. Medium level weapons like the rail gun should be a tool with which to engage a Warthog while Anti-Vehicle/Material weapons should pose an immediate threat. Load out weapons should be considered negligible except when used to engage exposed personnel.

-Again, not a true improvement, but I want the Warthog to feel like the Warthog again. Look at what a simple sound overhaul did for the AR in Reach. It went from next to worthless in H3 to useful in Reach.

 

Possible Improvements to Warthog Variants

This next section is the product of a conversation my long-term gunner and I had a while ago. We were thinking about how to better balance the warthogs after going 40-something and zero in the gauss 'Hog. Effective, but in our opinion that kind of score was on the ridiculous side of things. We came to the conclusion that while each variant should be able to engage all targets, each should outclass the others at engaging a single type of enemy the archetypes we decided on were a Gun 'Hog vs. Infantry, a Gauss 'Hog vs. land vehicles, and a Rocket 'Hog vs. air vehicles. The following are some ideas we came up with during that conversation.

 

-The Chain Gun Warthog AKA Gun 'Hog has a few odd things about it. I believe the gun overheats too quickly to effectively deal with groups larger than two enemies. It used to be that groups of any size caught in the open by 'Hogs were slaughtered. Smarter players on foot used cover and size to their advantage to evade the Warthog team. This also means that smarter players in H4 simply cannot be engaged effectively by Gun 'Hog crews because of the extremely finite amount of ammunition they can put downrange in a given firefight.

As it stands I believe that the chain gun on the warthog should overheat less quickly. Accounting for the increased survivability idea that I wrote about earlier, this should allow a Gun 'Hog team to engage multiply exposed targets effectively and engage targets in cover with a small degree of success. With a greater longevity of fire the warthog would be considerably more effective at pinning enemies down and supporting teammates.

 

-The Gauss Warthog AKA Gauss 'Hog is pretty powerful as it stands. In my opinion it is both too fragile and too lethal. A skilled team can engage and kill targets at any range. Whilst I believe the Gauss 'Hog should fulfill some sort of sniper-esque role, I do not think that it should be so wildly effective against infantry. I read a thread that had the idea of making it function similarly to the rail gun, but I can't take credit for it. It is an idea that merits further thought though.

As it stands I believe the Gauss 'Hog is too effective against both infantry and vehicles. The addition of an overheating mechanic would serve to alleviate the 'Hogs massive firepower. After two or three shots in rapid succession enemies could engage or maneuver with relative safety while the gauss cannon cools down.

 

-The Rocket Warthog AKA Rocket 'Hog is incredibly chaotic. With the occasion of the occasional lucky hit the Rocket 'Hog is the least powerful and most vulnerable of the 'Hog Variants. It doesn't even fulfill the role of AA especially well. After the Warthog fires off its volley (which is completely capable of destroying itself) it faces a very long reload time.

As it stands I believe that if the Hog's Rocket Pods functioned identically to the Mantis's Rocket Pods it would make the Rocket 'Hog a valuable commodity. A skilled 'Hog crew could time their attack run precisely. Charged up rockets would be unloaded at a faster rate than what is current, meaning less scatter due to the 'Hog's movement. They could also engage single targets without leaving themselves completely defenseless. In addition a lock-on mechanic vs. air vehicles means the 'Hog can engage air vehicles with a degree of effectiveness.

 

Any thoughts? Discussion is appreciated.

Well I would say the only improvement I see necessary is for the to make the warthog actually SOUND like the warthog. 343 butchered Halo in every way possible. I was so disappointed in them the second I played Halo 4.

[Kazadure]

very informative good work