Balancing Long Range Precision Weapons for loadouts

[Darkrain491]

So many people keep saying the DMR and LR cannot be made to fit into Load-outs, and should hence forth be beefed up slightly, and made low tier power weapons. I disagree. I think the potential to make them fit load-outs is there, you just have to think outside the box.

I think all relative factions should have Three precision weapons: A Long/Medium Range Rifle, A Medium/Close Range Rifle, and a pistol. Now the problem we have had with Halo's newest Precision Rifles, the DMR and the LR, is their effective scope range. and that is where we have our fall. But first, my weapon suggestions (not all mine):

Long/Medium Range Weapons:
Long/Medium (I will hence forth refer to as L/M) now gain the following trait: with the popular wish for less powerful aim assist, I would suggest this. In Halo 5, The Aim Assist for Long Range weapons is better than that of Medium/Close (Hence Forth will be M/C), but only when Zoomed in, and they receive NO Aim Assist out side of zoom, meaning the really are restricted to long rage game-play, and are not useless at close range, but much harder to use. They also have Bloom, or something else that lowers their over all accuracy (optional). 

DMR: 
5 shot kill, 2x Scope(changed from 3x), regains a little Bloom from Reach (but not all of it).

LR: 
Has all its current traits, but with a 2x Scope (you will now see the trend), again, now has some bloom, but only when Zoomed in.

(New, My Idea) Thorn Rife (TR):
Only available in Multiplayer, Spartan-Ops and Firefight, this is a new weapon that was made by Brutes. 
It is a 4 shot kill, has the slowest fire rate and most recoil and a little less aim assist (still more zoomed in than M/C range weapons), but has a slight stun feature, slowing players a little (not as much as a Hi-Jack) again, a 2x scope.

Alternative to TR:
A Needle rifle that is 7 shot kill, 2x scope, fastest fire rate and the other effective L/M traits. (I feel the TR has more character) 

The 2x scope fix is to prevent cross-mapping as effectively, now there are just better at the BR/Carbines's previous maximum effective range, but worse than the minimum effective range.


Medium/Close Range Weapons:
Again, now we have the far less Aim Assist return assumed, these weapons have an over universal Aim Assist, as to say, their aim assist benefit comes in the fact that they get Aim Assist both scoped and un-scoped, but it isn't as powerful as a zoomed L/M range weapon. the fact they retain Aim Assist while scoped gives them a fighting chance against L/M weapons, but because the the L/M don't have any Aim Assist outside scope, they find that their at a disadvantage at the M/C secondary effective range.

BR:
4 Shot Kill, basically a port of Halo 4's BR.

Carbine:
7 shot Kill, again, a port of Halo 4's Carbine.

(New, My Idea) Molten Rifle:
A new Promethean/Forerunner weapon, this thing is very unique apart from one thing in that it shares a two fire mode system with the LR.

Mode One: Un-Zoomed:
This Weapons un-zoomed mode will have a magazine of 15 shots, that are fired at a faster rate than the BR, but slower than the Carbine. It is also "Automatic" in the same style as the needle rifle or Hand Cannon. but has a fair bit of recoil, it is a 5 shot kill. Whats so special I hear you cry? you are about to find out...

Mode Two: Zoomed:
This is where "Molten" comes into play. the weapon becomes a potential 2 shot kill, has less Assist (the lowest of all precision rifles, but not by much) but its magazine drops to FIVE shots. Why? because the first shot doesn't deal all that Damage in one go, oh no, it drains all their shields with a DoT lasting 2 seconds, you can fire again by 1 second, but if you want the kill, you need to strafe until you see their shields pop, and then fire. firing again will only make their shields drain a little fast, but this only stacks once, and can get you killed because you might not be able to fire your next shot before they kill you. the shots DoT will not damage after their is no shields, unless you place another shot on them after this that isn't a head-shot (a head-shot still kills a un-shielded enemy) the shots required to kill an un-shielded opponent are two (like plasma, it isn't good on health) but cause the shots are DoT, the result is a 1 for 1 in most cases, as the time to do this would be about four seconds, a 2 shot kill is two seconds at lowest.

This system for M/C means players that prefer these can have a chance against L/M weapons at long range while over all defeating them at close range.


Pistols:
These weapon would be an exact opposite in term of Aim Assist to L/M Precision Rifles. They would have the Aim Assist of the Thorn Rifle at un-zoomed, but none zoomed, and would have power appropriate to a side arm. aka, they are the power of their rifle counter parts, with less ammo per magazine. all Pistols would have a 1.5x zoom

Magnum: 
Halo 4 port, this is a good weapon.

(New, Not my Idea)Needle Pistol:
The reason I thought that a new weapon to be a Covenant/Brute/Storm Long Range was because of this. it would have a 10 magazine, a 7 shot kill (10 when not head shots), this means a 3 shot error margin, same as the Magnum, and if you cant get a head-shot, you need the full mag to kill.

Boltshot (revised):
This weapon would now have an increased magazine, to twelve shots. it would be a 8 shot kill, have the fastest fire rate, but again, all twelve shots are required to kill without head-shot. now, the charge up shotgun effect takes the FULL animation (should take 3-4 seconds) and only drains enough shields two reform a melee, and even then, only if every "Bolt" hits (but there are now only 8 bolts, every bolt removes 1/9 of their shields, if we can still melee kill when they have low shields, if not, 1/8 per bolt), it also leaves the player with 4 shots in their magazine, they cannot fire off another shotgun overcharge now, and have to head-shot or melee, and a melee is only available if all shots hit, so head-shots will be more common, and may even become a preferred way to fire it. there is also a limiting factor in that the Overcharge can only drop shields if they are damaged or not, never kill on overcharge unless the foe is completely un-shielded. 

 

this is a copy of a topic I made on Waypoint, sorry for the weird highlight.

Edited December 14, 2013 by RedStarRocket91
Fixed the weird highlight.

[A6ENT of CHA0S]

Copy/pasted from the Halo Waypoint forums. I've replied there with a question for you, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to post it here as well... P.S. Next time you copy/paste, you might want to "Paste as plain text". Doesn't include the black highlight

You wrote: "So many people keep saying the DMR and LR cannot be made to fit into Load-outs, and should hence forth be beefed up slightly, and made low tier power weapons. I disagree. I think the potential to make them fit load-outs is there, you just have to think outside the box."

 

Let me just say, when referring to the DMR and LR , I don't think its IMPOSSIBLE to fit them into Personal Loadouts. However, they would need to be better balanced with the other primaries to require more skill to use/be less effective at less-than-long ranges to prevent them from being comparatively overpowered. In my opinion, this integration dulls the edge of such weapons and gives players a weapon with a niche that doesn't fit well at-spawn (long-range weapon capabilities often lead to a lack of map movement) and wouldn't fulfill that niche as well as it could.

 

On the other hand, if the DMR and LR were to be placed on-map, they could still have a noticeable advantage. There wouldn't be as strict a mandate to jump through hoops to make these weapons balanced to the primaries, only to make them effective and balanced into the sandbox as a whole.

 

In short, I don't believe its necessarily a matter of "Is it possible to integrate them into loadouts?" so much as it is a matter of "Is it best to integrate them into loadouts?" I'll ask you this question: Why do you believe these weapons would be genuinely better suited as loadout primaries as opposed to map pick-ups?

[Darkrain491]

 

Copy/pasted from the Halo Waypoint forums. I've replied there with a question for you, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to post it here as well... P.S. Next time you copy/paste, you might want to "Paste as plain text". Doesn't include the black highlight

You wrote: "So many people keep saying the DMR and LR cannot be made to fit into Load-outs, and should hence forth be beefed up slightly, and made low tier power weapons. I disagree. I think the potential to make them fit load-outs is there, you just have to think outside the box."

 

Let me just say, when referring to the DMR and LR , I don't think its IMPOSSIBLE to fit them into Personal Loadouts. However, they would need to be better balanced with the other primaries to require more skill to use/be less effective at less-than-long ranges to prevent them from being comparatively overpowered. In my opinion, this integration dulls the edge of such weapons and gives players a weapon with a niche that doesn't fit well at-spawn (long-range weapon capabilities often lead to a lack of map movement) and wouldn't fulfill that niche as well as it could.

 

On the other hand, if the DMR and LR were to be placed on-map, they could still have a noticeable advantage. There wouldn't be as strict a mandate to jump through hoops to make these weapons balanced to the primaries, only to make them effective and balanced into the sandbox as a whole.

 

In short, I don't believe its necessarily a matter of "Is it possible to integrate them into loadouts?" so much as it is a matter of "Is it best to integrate them into loadouts?" I'll ask you this question: Why do you believe these weapons would be genuinely better suited as loadout primaries as opposed to map pick-ups?

 

Variation, Play-style  and Equality.

 

Variation:

Everyone who wants these out is simply does't seem to remember that once you do have them gone, your left with three (two not including my hypothetical Molten Rifle) precision weapons all doing the same job, M/C Range Combat. Having weapons that specialize at Long Range but are evenly matched at Middle Range and defeated at Close Range while vice versa for the M/C weapons adds more depth to your choice, and you have to pick carefully depending on the map. For example, the map may be large, with some open spaces, but the amount of time you are moving in and about the enclosed spaces would prompt you to take a M/C Range Rifle, but you have the choice to test your luck with the L/M Range weapon.

 

Play-Style:

With the new cult following behind the DMR and LR, and how they affect play-style, it's natural some players will complain about not having their DMR and LR from spawn. giving them a 2x Scope, Faster Projectile speed and less Un-Zoomed Aim Assist means they can have their Longer range play-style, but at a level where it doesn't aid cross mapping like it used too, as it it has the same zoom, it just makes hitting them easier, that's not to say you can't still do It with a BR, MR or CC, but it's easier to do so with the DMR, LR or TR. similarly, you can still use a L/M Ranged Weapon Successfully, but the BR, MR and CC are better at it, Its like the Sniper Rifle, good players can pull of no-scopes easily, and hence they find a way to use these weapons at close range.

 

Equality:

A player who is terrible at Close or Medium Range encounters should not be forced to start with something they are not good with. This is as bad as a player starting with OP weapons in a way. Letting players who are better at Longer Range Combat have their weapons but at a nerfed level is a balanced way to allow them this. People say it would affect map flow. I would disagree here as the weapons are now 2x Scoped, same as the BR, MR and CC. these weapons now have a much better chance at fighting back over longer range, and will force the L/M Range Weapons to stay on the move, because the M/C range weapons are going to outgun you much faster than before. and can get closer easier. 

[A6ENT of CHA0S]

Variation: The BR and CC may fulfill the same combat role, but they do so differently. If you really want to start getting down to "variation" over a more diverse weapon sandbox, then why do you think the DMR AND LR should come back? They fulfill the same combat role, all the while having different aspects to them (same as the BR/CC relationship).

 

Play-style: Not all play-styles should be encouraged/allowed at-spawn. PP/'Stickies' is a play-style, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't harm vehicular (as well as infantry) gameplay. Having a close-ranged weapon like the Boltshot or Mauler to deal with enemies "up close and personal" is another play-style, but not one that should be allowed to anyone/everyone at-spawn. Likewise, long-ranged precision rifles offer a specific play-style, but in excess they discourage map movement and make closer-ranged weapons, like the AR, nearly useless. Also, the "cult following" for these weapons isn't the best point to make since the debate is on their integration, not their outright removal/inclusion (especially when you want to change core features of both e.g. zoom strength).

 

Equality: There is really no way to make a short-mid ranged automatic (AR) and a mid-long ranged precision rifle (DMR) equal, because the AR can only effectively land shots up until a certain distance. After that, the DMR-user has nothing to fear from an AR-user. On the other hand, a DMR-user can consistently land shots at almost any range (especially closer ranges).The DMR has a chance in CQC, especially when you get into melee range. The AR-user still is in danger when confronted by a DMR-user, so that relationship can't really be considered equal. The AR may be better at close range than the DMR, but it can't really compete at all in long-ranged engagements.

[Benchimus]

Better idea. Scrap loadouts. Everyone starts with an AR and a decent magnum (like in Reach). All other weapons are on the map.  Want a better weapon? Go pick it up. Cant get one because everyone is beating you to it or killing you before you can get it? Practice and get better.

[Darkrain491]

Better idea. Scrap loadouts. Everyone starts with an AR and a decent magnum (like in Reach). All other weapons are on the map.  Want a better weapon? Go pick it up. Cant get one because everyone is beating you to it or killing you before you can get it? Practice and get better.

That is boring and bad for gameplay, so many have stated the reasons for why this is on here and waypoint. Your negative post is quite unbeneficial to the debate, and frankly, plain rude. If you cannont add to the conversation/debate, and in a polite manner, do not post. It isnt just what am fairly sure is a rule, its also just plain common decency.

[Darkrain491]

Your tone was rude, do not twist my words. And the way you talked about other players was equally rude and elitest.

 

As for my profile, I have had it since late 2007/early 2008. I have played Halo since halo 2, My favourite is Halo 3, I only had a steady internet at around november 2012, Hence my relatively low ranks on 3 and General Rank in Reach. Do not attempt to lower my viewpoint by discrediting me, which is once again rude and elitist.

[Darkrain491]

When did I say I agreed with perks, ordinance, and spawn AAs? I HATE that stuff. my other thread is a theoretical thing if loadouts where to stay. Ordinances is Bull excrement. I just would like to choose my spawn weapons, from automatics or balanced precisions, that would make me and many others happy.

[Darkrain491]

Well alright then. Your thoughts on the Molten Rifle, I am VERY proud and Interested for that weapon to see light in a halo game, it is something entirely new.