Reticule Bloom

[gollum385]

matt master i don't think everyone is trashing reach. I personally felt the game had good points. I think it's more of a consensus that halo 2 and 3 were much better in terms of multiplayer (definately the case imo). However i can see where some of the good ideas in reach were.

 

The custom options were great

I have no problem with the new weapons (except that there was a removal of all the old weapons (and dual wielding))

reticule bloom was a cool idea, but i think it should be tweaked.

aa's were a reasonable idea, but there execution was bad. I much preffered equipment in halo 3.

the new gamemodes were great (but again there was a removal of previous gametypes which was bad)

the armoury was cool (but credits werent)

 

I just felt that as a game for every good point there is a clear negative point. Map style was also a major problem, and the ranking/xp system also failed. The game didnt play like a halo game, it was more tailored to the casual audience, offering features like loadouts, which most players didn't want/don't like (again i think good idea for some circumstances, but implemented badly)

 

 

spectral jester, i can agree that bloom was implemented to make people not spam etc, and in the general the people who time there shots will win. What do you think of my idea in comparison to reach's then?

 

enry117 i can see why you'd say it slowed down gameplay. However i disagree bloom made the game harder. In fact i think the br battles in halo 3 were alot more competitve than dmr battles in reach, i found even though i was a pretty good players, the really good ones could always out br me.

 

Also always like the idea of custom option to turn it on/off. Maybe you could incorporate mine into that, so you determine what it bloom's too, how it blooms.

Would also love customisation on each weapon, changing damage, bullet speed (if no hitscan), shots per clip, total capacity etc and would be cool if this could apply to each weapon aswell.

 

Interesting to see some people have voted in favour in my idea. Is there anything that people like about my idea, in comparison to reach the reach version, or having no bloom like halo 3?

[Twinreaper]

To Spectral Jester and Matt, you quite obviously have no idea what bloom actually is or what is designed to be used for in the Reach blam! engine. Every Halo game had it's weapon draw backs if you spammed the trigger. For instance...

 

Halo 1: Pistol. squeeze off more rounds than once every 2 seconds and the fire staggers (across multiple markers)

Halo 2: Sniper rifle: Squeezing off rounds consistently caused the screen to take an upward Z vector

Halo 3: All of the above apply.

Halo 3 ODST: SMG: You can clearly see the accuracy drop when using non-controlled non-short bursts.

Halo Reach: DMR: Firing more than one round every complete second or 2 causes staggered fire.

 

Definition for Bloom as used in Halo: The visual representation to allow players to physically see the rate and spread of a weapons fire after a designated amount of rounds in constant fire have been reached. Again, every Halo game has this. Halo Reach was just the first one to give the player a way to really see it without having to be a highly skilled player to determine or memorize the changing of firing for weapons.

 

Ok, now for the whole hitscan weapon thing. First off, it is best to describe for those who have no idea what is, what exactly it is.

Hitscanning, is when the game engine does a series of calculations before the firing weapon actually ejects it's round. When you pull the trigger, the game determines the path of the projectile assuming that said projectile has an infinite velocity, and calculates what objects are in it's infinite path.

 

Halo 2 is the only game to date to truly incorporate the "hitscan" type weapon. And even saying that is not accurate. There were certain instances where the hitscan style of projectile use did not function as intended. There would be times at which you fired the weapon, and only 1 or 2 rounds actually would hit the target. This is because the battle rifle fires 3 rounds, but each round actually ejects at different times. For true hitscan, the weapon can only fire 1 round at a time. Which is why saying the battle rifle was a hitscan weapon, is still not completely true.

 

Now I do not believe hitscan has any business being in any fps. Trying to justify it in game environments that utilize such realistic collision detection and physics handling is just silly. If they do intend on doing it, then they might as well just not do any type of multiplayer. If true hitscan weapons are used, then no matter how much you stafe, roll or evade, the shots will always hit their target. Part of the magic of multiplayer is leading your opponent.

 

As for the realistic end of it, there are not hitscan weapons in real life. every firearm fires projectiles at a set speed determined by how much gunpowder or magnetism is present in the round or barrel. Everything slows due to physics and gravity. So why add such a silly thing into a game that uses such advanced environmental handlings?

 

Sorry this ended up so long, I just get really aggravated when people who do not know how the game engine works, or what data is present in the tag sets of the maps and resource files.

[l mj l]

Twinreaper:

 

On Bloom: So you don't have a problem with the spread of the weapon and how bungie has it set up for the dmr? You just have a problem with it being represented by a visible reticule? I guess I understand where you're going with that, but it seems kind of un.....haloish.

 

In all the halos the reticule showed how far the spread was, and now that there's a mechanic called bloom where as the RoF increases the spread increases with it (the most noticeable change in that department of any weapon yet) doesn't it seem fitting that the reticule would also show how wide the spread is?

 

I think your opinion makes a lot of sense, but is more oriented to other FPS's. It would make the game more difficult your way, but you got to think: all halos have shown the spread with the reticule, and why stop now?

 

On Hitscan: If you want the game to be more realistic, you're completely right in saying that hitscan is not the way to do it. But if you take out the realism aspect hitscan makes for a great way to register shots online. It's far more reliable, and I think makes the game faster and more competitive, but that's just my opinion. I'm a h2 fanboy.

 

I don't mind how H3 was for the most part. Leading shots is probably the way to go moving forward, and I hope to see it in H4. The problem with H3 was the randomness of the bloom. If it was tightened up some H3 would have gotten it right.

[Twinreaper]

MJ, you misunderstood the bloom part of my post. Every Halo title does not show the amount of spread from a firing weapon. Only in Halo 2, did the reticule encompass the entire area that the spread was limited to. Did you bother to read my examples, like the H1 Pistol?

I never said I was against it, I just stated that from a programmatic stand point, it is useless.

 

For instance, items like the carbine, bruteshot and mounted turrets, never have the reticule encompass the entire spread of fire.

 

As for the end of the post with the tightening of the bloom. BLOOM IS NOTHING MORE THAN A VISUAL WIDGET OF THE HUD. IT DOES NOT CONTROL OR DICTATE THE SPREAD OF A WEAPON. DATA IN THE WEAPON TAG ITSELF TELLS THE RETICULE TO GROW OR CONTRACT BASED ON THE AMOUNT OF ROUNDS FIRED.

 

As for Hitscan in multiplayer, it does not make any sense. The ping required alone to make hitscan work is not achievable. There will always be a delay between all the clients and the host server, rendering hitscan a useless option for any type of weapon. That is why hitscan is never used in multiplayer aspects, and why we always have to slightly lead our targets.

 

I could go over the technical game engine side of all these points for years, after rifting thru countless tags and decompiled maps, but I think the whole thing has gotten way out of hand. Just suffice to say I do not and will never endorse the blooming reticule or hitscan weapons. Reaper out!

[El Silverado]

IMO :

Reticule bloom just gets annoying when I have to pace my shots against a spammer. I think it should just return back to classic bloom, and if someone is spamming their gun at you and you die. Deal with it, next time don't run around the map like there's no tomorrow.

[Spectral Jester]

wow this is getting really indepth, i dont mind it, but an option to turn on/off would be good.

[l mj l]

F.ck, reaper, I can read.

 

I understand how the spread works. Don't assume that because my opinion differs from yours that I'm not read up on the technical aspects of the game and the ramifications of said technical aspects.

 

And let me say that you're the first person I've ever seen that has referred to just the visual representation as bloom. I'm pretty damn sure the community consensus and even Bungie (I could be mistaken, and if I am I apologize) refers to the changing spread of the dmr based on RoF as BLOOM. That might not be technically correct, but for all intensive purposes does it really matter whether or not that's the name denoted to it?

 

Now, I did a bit more research, and you're completely right about the H1 bloom. For some reason I believed the spread to be less than it actually is. My B. I'm guess that's the way you'd prefer it?

 

Halo 3 didn't have any sort of growing spread based on RoF, so I'm a little confused that we're at odds about that. It was simply random. And the reticule did in fact show the basic area in which the bullets would land within a certain distance. If that's not true than I might as well quit playing halo because I'm a dumb***.

 

So the past 2 games have shown graphical representations of the spread, so my argument for the most part still stands. The dmr reticule shows the basic spread just like 2 and 3. Maybe not 1, but 2 and 3. And I think that's alright.

 

I think reach's reticule works, and honestly, I like what you would want too. I'm not really too biased either way. I just wonder (I never played H1 competitively) whether there was a way of "whipping shots" in H1 like there is with the dmr. I'd be curious to know that.

 

One more point: When I referred to tightening the bloom on the H3 BR I'm meaning that the shot groupings should have been closer together. I'm sorry you're too worried about defining bloom rather than adequately addressing my meaning.

 

Do you enjoy reach?

[Twinreaper]

Our opinions on some things may differ MJ, but to be honest, I get a little over worked about certain game mechanics and the things they represent. No ill will or anything towards you.

 

A majority of my knowledge of the game mechanics comes form my extensive modding backround with all the Halo titles.

 

As for the bloom in Halo 1, yeah it is pretty whacky. But I guess thats what makes the multiplayer of it so challenging. But hands down halo 2 will always have the best multiplayer feel and physics handling.

 

I agree that the fire spread in H3 should have been a little tighter grouped. I guess they were trying to go for a more realistic approach to tyring to simulate the kickback vs aiming properly effect of real life weapons fire. Obviously that failed..lmao

 

I do quite enjoy Reach, just not the armor effects or the credit system. The AI though is very lacking. At first after I played thru legendary a couple times, I found myself really collecting my whits. But now, after being a little more experienced at it, the AI seems way to predictable. about 99% of the time, I can now charge an elite zealot or major head on, and almost always walk away with another assassination under my belt.

 

The multiplayer part of it, I almost never play. The feel and all the extras they tried to cram into it just didnt ever feel right to me, and a lot of the extras become too much of a distraction for me personally. Firefight for me, is where all the action is at!

[l mj l]

Yep, definitely not personal. You definitely know what you're talking about, and that's what this forum needs.

[Twinreaper]

Thanks for that MJ. Always glad to meet a fellow enthusiast in terms of all this tech junk mumbo jumbo. But yeah, if anyone ever has a general question about Halo or other stuff, I'm always up for a good argument or a good healthy talk on stuff. Don't be shy guys. I plan on making this my new Bungie replacement home.

[Burnzy]

how about just get rid of it. 99.9% of the people I talk to about bloom absolutely hate it. Go back to halo 2 and 3 settings everyones favorite halos, I have never heard anybody say reach was there favorite halo.

[Thursbie]

BLOOOM SUCKS GET RID OF IT

[gollum385]

Nice discussion about bloom therem thanks for clearing it up.

 

If bloom is in fact only the visual representation then reaper, do you think that my system (even without the visual representation) would be a good way of changing how bullet spread works (maybe recoil could apply the same (fast 2 shots, not problem, more and kickback continues to increase)?

[Twinreaper]

I like the continuous increase in recoil idea. In real life after firing a few rounds and holding the weapon tyou tend to get tired. That increases the amount of force you feel from recoil and tends to drop your accuracy and aiming ability.

 

It is indeed a very interesting and well thoughtout idea for the whole process you had going on. I would be interested to see if maybe there was a way I could script something similar into Halo2. If I made it a continious script, it would be able to work for everyone, including clients.

[Baykem]

I like the continuous increase in recoil idea. In real life after firing a few rounds and holding the weapon tyou tend to get tired. That increases the amount of force you feel from recoil and tends to drop your accuracy and aiming ability.

 

It is indeed a very interesting and well thoughtout idea for the whole process you had going on. I would be interested to see if maybe there was a way I could script something similar into Halo2. If I made it a continious script, it would be able to work for everyone, including clients.[

Simply put, No. bloom is not halo, it will never be in my opinon, i will never support it on ANY precsion weapon. (except sniper).

[starshot36]

i really disliked reticule bloom rather have br spread because at least that kept some realism what with being a super soldier with out the hassle of recoil. good old halo 3

[gollum385]

Thanks for the compliment twinreaper. Again I was under the confusion that the bloom system. although shown in reach, was also different from previous games. I think the ideas i implemented were useful as they punish those who spam constantly, but i like the idea of a tactical spam (ala double shot in halo 2).

 

I agree compared to reach i much preferred how halo 3 weapons functioned. But again this was the idea i thought up based on the reach system (again whether the bloom is shown or not is up to the developers.

[gollum385]

I also agree that especially spartan 2's are super soldiers, things like recoil etc or the blooming effect shouldn't have to big an impact on them.

This is why i think that the increasing bloom effect makes more logical sense. Again i think the benefit is that as long as you keep timing your shots, this won't occur, but should you choose to fire a couple of quick shots to finish an enemy off, you can do this, but may suffer reduced accuracy in future shots.

[gollum385]

I think the other thing we must remember us that this is the future, with super soldiers using weapons. I think whatever the outcome, it should focus on how it makes gameplay feel, rather than what is realistic to real life.

[RAGE778]

I like the reticule bloom in reach because it prevented perfect spam shots like in the other games

But spaming is necessary sometines like when you shift cover or run to an objective

Halo could always use a little bit of spamming

[Kyuun]

I'd like to have a harder bloom system to reward skilled shooting instead of spamming. Your idea seems like a good idea.

[gollum385]

I like the reticule bloom in reach because it prevented perfect spam shots like in the other games

But spaming is necessary sometines like when you shift cover or run to an objective

Halo could always use a little bit of spamming

 

I'd like to have a harder bloom system to reward skilled shooting instead of spamming. Your idea seems like a good idea.

 

Thanks for the comments guys. I defiantely agree the opportunity to tactically spam is sometihng which should be possible, even if it sacrifices later shots (like my methods). This sorts of method, plus the harsher way the bloom works, promotes skilled players who can act based on the situation, deciding when and when not to time their shots/spam.

[Twinreaper]

Touching back on the whole "hitscan" thing again. I came across an interesting little tid-bit the other day while playing thru Exodus on Legendary with my son. Now the whole controversy around hitscan, is that Reach uses it, and all weapons except for covie ones uses it.

 

I can now say without fail that it is false. As I said me and my boy were on Exodus, where you have to defend the civilians from the covie, the part right before you take the elevator down to the jet pack area. Anyway, as I was engaging the last of the 3 brutes that remained.... I found myself and the brute both running along the same path. As we were running, I had my DMR pointed directly at and kept it at his head while we were both moving.

 

The distance between us at our moving speed was maybe about 3 feet distance in real life perspective. At that distance, with the reticule dead center, I began to fire bursts of shots. By burst, I mean well paced waiting for bloom to rest. Every shot I fired missed the brute.

 

That's right, every single shot, that was dead aimed at his head while moving missed. If hitscan were used, this would not have occurred, since the projectile would have been instantly collided with said brutes head. I almost took a dump in my pants when this happened. 3 feet away, and I unloaded half a clip and missed everytime.

 

Of coarse I went back into theater mode and saw firsthand, that yes indeed, every shot did miss. WTF Bungie and 343!!!!

 

So I tried to replicate this again, after me and the boy got schooled by the last Brute hammer chief guy ****** thingy. This time I lead my shot in front of his head a tiny bit. And wouldn't you know it, every shot hit. Now it just begs the question, is this a random incident or has anyone else had this happen to him or her?

[Hero]

Bloom SUCKS

[Hero]

No one like it!