343 has to get it right this time.

[Xbox Fan]

I'll make things perfectly clear I'm not making a hate thread, so if anyone gets on my thread looking for trouble then please just leave and save everybody else the trouble. If anybody is going to leave a comment basically insulting me, then I'm just going to ignore you. Anyway, on to my point that I'm going to make. Of course most of you already know how bad things looked for Halo after the release of Halo 4. At first there was a lot of hype for the game, but after a while that hype turned into disappointment. Most players were hoping for Halo 4 to be a return to classic gameplay but sadly the game just made things worse than what Halo: Reach did. Many fans left Halo after Halo 4 was out for a couple of months and have not returned back to the game ever since. People have also been saying that they're done with Halo. Others said that Halo 5 will be 343's last chance to make things right. So I'll also put my opinion into it as well. I didn't really like Halo 4 that well either. It felt rushed. It was incomplete. There were balancing issues, bugs, etc.. with the game. I as well as most other Halo fans couldn't stand it and prefer Halo 3 much better. The way I see it, 343 will have to make Halo 5 much better than Halo 4 if they want their franchise to survive. If Halo 5 is a continuation of Halo 4, I as well as others are through with Halo all together. It's very important that Halo 5 is like Halo 3 or else the Halo franchise is done. I'll now personally give a list of what I want for Halo 5.

* The complete removal of Sprint

* The complete removal of Loadouts

* The complete removal or Perks

* The complete removal of Hit-Markers

* The complete removal of Instant Respawn

* The complete removal of Join-In Progress

* The complete removal of Armor Abilities

* The complete removal of Ordinance Drops

* The complete removal of Grenade Indicator

* The complete removal of COD Point-Based System

* The complete removal of Specializations

* The complete removal of Spartan Points

* The complete removal of Bullet Magnetism

* The complete removal of COD Progressive Ranking System

* The complete removal of Killcams

* The complete removal of Mantis

* The complete removal of DMR

* The complete removal of Weapon Indicator

* The complete removal of Bloom

* The complete removal of Weapon Skins

* The complete removal of Commendations

* The complete removal of Powerup Indicator

* The complete removal of Spartan Ops

* The complete removal of Boltshot

* The complete return of Descope

* The complete return of Halo Scoring System

* The complete return of Equal Starts

* The complete return of Weapon and Powerup Placement

* The complete return of Red X's

* The complete return of Friendly-Fire

* The complete return of In-Game 1-50 CSR System

* The complete return of Dual-Wielding

* The complete return of Separate Playlists such as Ranked, Social, Community, and Cooperative

* The complete return of Elites in Multiplayer

* The complete return of Firefight

* The complete return of other gametypes such as Assault, Territories, Juggernaut, Infection, VIP, Stockpile, Race, Headhunter, and Invasion

* The complete return of other weapons such as SMG, Bruteshot, Grenade Launcher, Spike Grenade, Incendiary Grenade, Flamethrower, Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Spiker, Focus Rifle, Mauler, Plasma Launcher, and Trip Mine

* The complete return of other vehicles such as Hornet, Chopper, Prowler, Spectre, and Elephant

* The complete return of maps such as Blood Gulch, Last Stand, Guardian, Ascension, Blackout, Sandtrap, Sandbox, Snowbound, and Standoff

* The complete return of Halo 3 style Military Ranks

* The complete return of Win/Lose Progressive Ranking System

* The complete return of The Arbiter in Campaign

* The complete return of Forge World

* The complete return of Terminals in Campaign

* The complete return of Skulls in Campaign

* The complete return of Campaign Scoring

* The complete return of Halo 3 Style Theater Mode

* The complete return of Search Options in Matchmaking

* The complete return of Pysch Options in Matchmaking

* The complete return of Halo 3 Style difficulty

Edited April 26, 2014 by Xbox Fan

[Twinreaper]

Bloom as you call it, as well as magnetism was in every Halo title. As for the rest of it, you need to work on the layout and a good description of why YOU think it needs to be reconcidered. Not gonna lie, walls of text like that are both confusing and unproductive.

[xtclunatic]

Yes man, I with you for the most part.
The most important things imo are just getting rid of loadouts, sprint, armor abilities and espescially RANDOM WEAPON SPAWNS!!!! Halo was all about everyone fighting for the powerweapons on these well placed locations and even starts.. now its just higher rank > better loadout> more luck with random weapons> better chance of killing.

 

Bloom as you call it, as well as magnetism was in every Halo title. As for the rest of it, you need to work on the layout and a good description of why YOU think it needs to be reconcidered. Not gonna lie, walls of text like that are both confusing and unproductive.

Bloom wasnt in every halo game. Halo Reach first had that.

[I_Make_Big_Boom]

It would be a lot better if you had actually organized your sentences into paragraphs or something. The walls of text people post here are hard on the eyes.

 

The only problems I see are not leveling past 130, removal of betrayal from matchmaking altogether, and some bug fixes.

 

Other than that I see nothing wrong with Halo 4.

[rrhuntington]

If you don't want to read it all then just read this:  "HALO 3 Again Please, with a dash of ODST!"

 

Look, I agree with a lot of the things you said, and I'd be inclined to say that a lot of people would as well, but never once did you include:  "THE ADDITION OF ______"

 

This is why games have different numbers. They are a continuation of or an addition to their predecessor, so to ADD something to what's already been done, not just a repeat of the past.

[Twinreaper]

Bloom was in every Halo game. Unless you know the Blam! engine better than I, which you dont, do some research. Bloom in Reach is the same varying error angle that exists in all Halo games. Reach was just the first game to incorporate a reticule that expanded and contracted to show you where the error values were currently at depwnding on your sustained rate of fire.

[SilentGamer64]

Bloom was in every Halo game. Unless you know the Blam! engine better than I, which you dont, do some research. Bloom in Reach is the same varying error angle that exists in all Halo games. Reach was just the first game to incorporate a reticule that expanded and contracted to show you where the error values were currently at depwnding on your sustained rate of fire.

 

Correction: Spread was in every Halo game. Bloom was first introduced in Reach and forced players to reduce their ROF for the sake the weapon's consistency. Spread and bloom are two completely different mechanics.

 

In terms of the DMR, bloom occurs as a result of pulling the trigger too quickly, which causes the bullets to spread. In terms of the BR, it doesnt matter how fast the trigger is pulled, the spread is going to occur every time.

 

That being said, I prefer spread-based weapons over bloom-based ones for Halo. Bloom is essentially the game telling players how fast or slow they can kill an opponent, while spread-based weapons like the BR have a static spread range that limits the player's max range, but not their ROF/killing efficiency.

[OMG Treason]

I actually enjoyed the hitmarkers. So I know if I actually you know am hitting. I also enjoy commendations they are fun to work towards. You cannot go completely backwards with the way the video game industry is now days. Some stuff can go but, there is a small minority that really wants Halo to be MLG 360 no scope. At this point the game is so old you have to be trying to attract those who have never heard of Halo before, you do that by innovation.

[Zoob]

How about you just got play some halo 3. Everyone wins.

[Rue]

I think that all of the changes keeps Halo a good franchise. If they kept all of the old things and kept bringing them back, I don't think the game would get anywhere and people would get bored with it faster. Some of the things on your list I do agree with, but if 343 did all of that I think more people would be done with Halo.

[Twinreaper]

Bloom as you all call it, is the same as error. When you slow burst an assault rifle in Halo1, 2 & 3, the accuracy is maintained according to the minimum and maximum firing time required to reach a max and min error. Bloom works on the same mechanic. Again, "bloom" in Reach and Halo 4, is just a reticule permutation so you can see where the maximun and minimum firing error is. You obviously havent studied tag structure or values well enough to know this.

 

I do apreciate the effort, but unless you knkw some magical undiscovered tag values inside the map file, then please by all means, show the heirarcal layout and coralation between them.

[SilentGamer64]

Bloom as you all call it, is the same as error. When you slow burst an assault rifle in Halo1, 2 & 3, the accuracy is maintained according to the minimum and maximum firing time required to reach a max and min error. Bloom works on the same mechanic. Again, "bloom" in Reach and Halo 4, is just a reticule permutation so you can see where the maximun and minimum firing error is. You obviously havent studied tag structure or values well enough to know this.

 

I do apreciate the effort, but unless you knkw some magical undiscovered tag values inside the map file, then please by all means, show the heirarcal layout and coralation between them.

 

In terms of the full autos, yes, bloom was a thing. But I'm talking about the precision weapons. Bloom was not used by precision weapons until Reach.

 

I also dislike the condecending tone you're using, not just with me, but with everyone else you are addressing. You've made your point, no need to get snobby.

[Twinreaper]

So your telling me that in CE, the Pistol had the same amount or accuracy and error no matter how slow or fast you pulled the trigger?  The BR in both Halo 2 and Halo 3 didn't also have varying error angles depending on how quick or how slow you pulled the trigger?  Halo 3 ODST didn't have a small amount of varying error with it either?  I guess my vision must be going then...

 

As for the attitude, sorry you got proven wrong and you don't like it very much.  You don't have to like me at all, but I do not apologize for being myself.  And for the record, you haven't seen "condecending" from me yet.

[Rooster Teeth]

Correction: Spread was in every Halo game. Bloom was first introduced in Reach and forced players to reduce their ROF for the sake the weapon's consistency. Spread and bloom are two completely different mechanics.

 

In terms of the DMR, bloom occurs as a result of pulling the trigger too quickly, which causes the bullets to spread. In terms of the BR, it doesnt matter how fast the trigger is pulled, the spread is going to occur every time.

 

That being said, I prefer spread-based weapons over bloom-based ones for Halo. Bloom is essentially the game telling players how fast or slow they can kill an opponent, while spread-based weapons like the BR have a static spread range that limits the player's max range, but not their ROF/killing efficiency.

Indeed . Bloom is DMR related. 

[SilentGamer64]

So your telling me that in CE, the Pistol had the same amount or accuracy and error no matter how slow or fast you pulled the trigger?  The BR in both Halo 2 and Halo 3 didn't also have varying error angles depending on how quick or how slow you pulled the trigger?  Halo 3 ODST didn't have a small amount of varying error with it either?  I guess my vision must be going then...

 

As for the attitude, sorry you got proven wrong and you don't like it very much.  You don't have to like me at all, but I do not apologize for being myself.  And for the record, you haven't seen "condecending" from me yet.

 

No, I'm saying that the CE pistol had a consistent cone of spread, there was no additional penalty for accuracy when firing faster or slower.

 

The BR in Halo's 2 and 3 had "varying error angles" because of spread, not bloom. The BR has spread, along with recoil, to keep it within its mid-range effectiveness. I could care less about ODST's weapon mechanics. That game was built for campaign/co-op, not matchmaking.

 

I enjoy discussing Halo and I dont mind getting proven wrong, but your attitude comes off as very arrogant.

[OMG Treason]

Twinreaper is correct. Not like it really matters what the difference is, im still dome'n scrubs all day.

[Twinreaper]

Look Silent, Im done arguing with you. I know the engine, I know the tag structures and side loading script engines. I know the 100% FACT about the mechanics, the layout and how they interact. If you want to continue this pointless interaction be my guest. If your going to keep trying to prove your point, show some proof?

[Twinreaper]

Well before you try to reverse what you said, I took the liberty of screen capturing CE and Halo 2.  You can see in video #1 in CE, that firing the pistol at varied speeds, yields quite different results.  Results that show, accuracy is lost the faster and more consistently you pull the trigger.  Is it just me, or does that look EXACTLY like how the DMR works?!?  Nahhhh, cause I'm stupid remember....     I also fired the AR for you to, just to show you how pulling the trigger slower or faster increases, minimizes or increases your accuracy.  I know, crazy **** right?!?  I would have fired the sniper rifle to, just to show that depending on how quickly you pull off your shots, dictates how varied the accuracy is.

 

 

And here in video #2, we have Halo 2.  Firing the BR at varied speeds also yields a slight accuracy differential.  I made sure to walk up to the wall on all the burst groups so you could see it.  Yup, fires exactly the same way as it does in Halo 4, minus the whole "Z axis" recoil factor.  Also please check the SMG and Magnum .  As you can see again, firing at different speeds or consistently, yields results that look eerily quite similar to the whole bloom bull**** thing everyone wants to taught.  Again, crazy **** I know!  Again, I would have fired the Beam Rifle, Carbine and Sniper, but again, you get the idea.

 

 

Now far be it from me to ever go out of my way to prove how a mechanic works, but it is quite clear that the only difference in the way the weapons work, is that silly little reticule doesn't expand to cover the area in which your shots will result to from pulling the trigger fast or slow in CE, Halo 2 and Halo 3.  As I tried to explain earlier, but your simple closed mind was dead set on being right; that bloom is just the reticule expanding and contracting.  That alone is just a HUD function, not a dictated weapon function.  I can further prove this by making tweaks in halo 2 weapons for PC, to match the exact settings in Halo 4's weapon tags, and guess what?  They will function identical minus the moving reticule.  So again, state your case please?

[ChristopherRyan]

TwinReaper, 

 

Thank you for taking the time to bring this evidence to the table.

 

However I think the more important argument is not how these weapons have performed in the past, but how 343 will make their guns perform in the next Halo game. Sure, error has always been around, and the visualization of that error (bloom) is relatively new, but should these functions return in Halo 5? I would say absolutely not.

 

No one likes to wait, and people have desperately been trying to increase the pace of Halo for years. MLG always ramps up movement speed in their gametypes, and most people prefer faster killing weapons. People usually cite the CE pistol as the best utility weapon, probably simply because it kills so fast at .6 seconds (although I think this is way too quick). People prefer the Halo 2 BR over all of the other ones, because it kills a little quicker.

 

I would argue that it is time for Halo to leave these nonsensical functions that punish firing weapons at the maximum fire rate behind. It would be simpler, cleaner, and a truer test of skill to take the programmed randomness out of guns. So what that Halo has always had this element? That doesn't mean that its a good idea to keep it. Error is bad because it makes it possible for a precision gun to shoot in a direction that it isn't pointing, meaning a shot that is on target could miss, or a shot that should miss could hit. Players shouldn't be victim to this poor design. Error serves no purpose other than to force players to slow down, which no one wants to do, and adds unnecessary elements of randomness to the game, taking control away from the player.

 

The guns in Halo should quite simply shoot where you point them, no questions asked (excepting guns like the AR and SMG, but those guns should also have way smaller maximum error values).

 

The BR should have no spread, and no recoil.

Bloom or error should not exist on the DMR or Carbine.

 

There is just no reason for this nonsense

[Twinreaper]

Thanks Chris, as always it is good to hear posative and clear thought on the other side of the coin. Im just not sure how I personally feel about modifying the weapons. Im so used to techniques like leading, that for me, removing error would devistate my ability to play even mildly well.

 

Although, at the same time I do see the point you make, and it is a valid one. Who knows, maybe the differential might not be that bad? All I can say is that I have removed these features on the weapons before in Halo 2, and it was extremely difficult to land a shot when engaging in combat even when your enemy was a dummy mock.AI standing completely still. I guess in the end we cant be sure exactly if the effects will be negative or posative. But you do make a good argument and I am always willing to hear and try it first hand before dismissing it.

[SilentGamer64]

There is very little difference between pacing shots and spamming the trigger for both the pistol and BR, to the point where it doesn't really affect the weapon's performance outside of its niche of mid-range (If you're trying to cross map with either weapon, you're doing it wrong). If you are going to try and exaggerate the effect by holding down the trigger for the CE pistol, then you might as well consider it a full-auto weapon, because no one in their right mind would ever do that in MM unless they had no idea what they were doing. Also, pacing your shots like that in CE and 2 would get you killed easily, so while bloom may have existed, its purpose is pretty redundant since practically one ever used it, or would ever want to use it. Assuming that almost everyone uses the pistol and BR the same way (pull the trigger as fast as you can), the spread that results is going to have the same, insignificant affect on gunplay. Compare this to Reach's extremely randomized bloom, and its almost a nonfactor.

 

I would also like to mention that Christopher Ryan above me pointed out that "bloom" is the visual effect of bullet behavior, which is displayed through the expansion of the weapon's reticule. So I stand by my original statement that bloom was not introduced until Reach, and that statement is correct. Good day.

[Twinreaper]

So now your retracting everything you said? You stated that bloom itself was a mechanic that hurt gameplay, now your back peddling? Ok.

 

And for the record, since day one of Reach, I have explained over and over again that bloom was simply a reticule function. If you really think there is a difference between spamming the trigger and pacing shots in the original teilogy, your dead wrong. Epic battles were the result of pacing and strafing, a lost art to the defunct now new generation of gamers.

 

Everyone paces shots in CE instead of spamming. The only exception to that rule is the sniper rifle. And as for your random DMR statement, the error angles, deceleration time and vectors are clearly defined. Like I said before in the shoutbox with Total Mayh3m, when you master a weapon properly, you control the outcome of your battles. Its easy to blame the game when you lose, but it takes a real gamer to take blame for his poor actions or inability to perform better than his/her opponent. Again, in the original trilogy, I never heard 1/4 of the type of complaints we have now with the way the weapons work.

 

If you ask me, sighting many complaints over 13+ years, I see one problem. Players cant adjust to slightly altered weapon performances. Your inability to master or adjust your gameplay to meet with newer tweaks is not the games fault it is yours. When I lose in Halo 4 and Reach, I blame myself for not playing enough, and adjusting myself to it.

[ChristopherRyan]

TwinReaper,

 

You start to lose me a little when you talk about how it is harder to hit targets with error disabled. How can that be? How can it become more drastically more difficult to hit a target with a more accurate gun? 

 

Leading would be separate from this discussion, as that is an element of projectile speed, and/or connection quality. Leading offers a valuable skill gap, and I can't argue against that. Sure, if you are shooting at a moving target, your bullets will not land at the exact center of your reticle, but that is because your reticle, and your target are moving, and the projectiles take time traversing through the air. This is a separate function from the discussion of error, or inaccuracies in the guns. I'd love to hear your opinions on this. In my opinion, using projectiles over hitscan is an ideal system, but only if the netcode and connection of a game is good enough. Projectiles would offer a higher skill gap, but hitscan offers that instataneous feel, and I think it might be better for online games. 

 

The other element we could experiment with is gravity affecting bullets, that would really bring Halo onto another level in terms of skill gap and weapon realism.

 

Lets put the BR aside for now, and just talk about semi auto weapons. Most of the semi auto weapons we have experience with have perfect, or close to perfect first shot accuracy, right? In other words, the first shot out of a pistol or dmr will land on target, as there is no or little error involved. And that perfect accuracy degrades with "spamming", correct? Are you suggesting that it is easier to shoot, or hit a moving target with a gun that degrades with accuracy? Or that it is difficult to hit a moving target while firing at the weapon's max speed? Is there some other element at play here, like an increase in bullet magnetism in relation to error? And what values have you been removing, specifically, the error on these guns, or auto aim and bullet magnetism functions? We're talking CE too right? Surely, if you reduce bullet magnetism it will be harder to hit anything.

 

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm trying to wrap my head around the concept that a less accurate gun is easier to use, and that a more accurate gun is harder to use, especially when we are just talking semi auto. I can kind of get it when we talk about the BR, as if you are off target, the spread could allow one or two of the bullets to hit, but not all. It seems to me that the guns would be a little more "honest" and simpler to use if there simply was no function in the game that could force your bullet to land outside of the inner reticle.

[Twinreaper]

I can't fully explain why aiming and connecting is harder with all error disabled.  All I can do is say how it was hard to do so when I disabled these items in-game on halo 2 PC.  Because there is no magnetism, no error and no auto-aim, it creates a pinpoint dot of accuracy on your shots.  Even being a slight hair from your target, end up in the bullet looking like it grazes the target, but misses.  Couple having all those items disabled, with having to jump around and strafe, it will make for a very difficult encounter.

 

If you don't believe me, then by all means fire up Halo 2PC, and try playing campaign with all auto-aim, error, and magnetism disabled, and tell me how long it takes for you to complete the game on medium.  I mean look, as long as Halo has been around, the weapons remained the same type of functionality and mechanics.  Removing those mechanics not only goes against the "Core Gameplay" defense, but also greatly alters the experience we have gotten used to over the last almost 15 years.  Completely removing the mechanics that give the weapons what we are used to, is in itself a move that will completely go against Halo's fundamental nature and alter the gameplay in the same way AA's and Loadouts did.

 

If your gonna have a DMR or BR with no error, and pinpoint accuracy when shooting at any speed, then you indivertibly also have to increase the magnetism or adjust the way the projectile reacts for weapons that are not "0" error, or all else your just turning it into a match of "Who can pull the trigger faster" and no other weapon will be used but percision.  I have always been a big believer of controlling your own fate.  I would rather have the weapons stay the same, and pace myself and play "smart", rather than have a game be dumbed down or catered to me, so I can perform well.  At this rate, we might as well just make all AI blind, you know, so that way people who cannot play campaign well, have a chance of doing well now.

 

At the end of the day, you need to look past what YOU want, and what YOU think is best for the franchise.  In terms of core mechanics that are consistent amongst the franchise, "If it aint broke, don't fix it".  Just as you and this Silent guy hate it, I'm sure there are just as many players who wouldn't want to see these mechanics go away.  Does that mean their opinion is less valid than your's?  Because they are new to the franchise, that makes their opinions less credible?  We all pay the same price to play the game, everyone has a valid opinion in that respect.  Not saying all opinions are good, some are backed by things that aren't true, but you get the idea.

 

Beofre I go and make this my last post to this thread, I have a simple question for you.  If the DMR functioned exactly like the sniper rifle, would you have a problem with it?  If the BR didn't have it's "z-up error" when firing, would you like it better?

[ChristopherRyan]

Ah, I see, you turned off magnetism as well. That explains it.

 

We know that we need auto aim and magnetism to make these games playable, I'm not arguing to take away those elements, although both auto aim and bullet magnetism were ludicrously high in Halo 2. 

 

I'm just saying that if you removed error, and reticle bloom, players would be able to fire their guns at the max fire rate without any ill affect. I'm arguing that there shouldn't be a disadvantage to firing precision weapons at the maximum rate, and that any introduced randomness decreases the player's control over the game, and also competitive merit. 

 

We shouldn't remove bullet magnetism, or auto aim outright,. We just need to try and keep it as low as possible while still maintaining playability. Halo Reach had remarkably low bullet magnetism, and that makes the ZB Reach DMR the truest test of a player's utility weapon accuracy: No error, little magnetism, and appropriate auto aim.

 

I respect what you are saying at the end of your post, about what "I want". I only voice these opinions because of my observations of community trends in opinion. I am a very open minded person, and perhaps I am a little too impressionable. I was gung-ho for loadouts and sprint, because I had no idea what the actual affects on gameplay would be. But after the dust had settled, and I had read the opinions of other people on the internet, I realized that these features I had thought would be good for halo ultimately played a large part in the downfall of Halo. You have to realize that my posts don't contain solely my own opinions, but the best regurgitated logic and theory from all over the internet.

 

I cannot say outright that my opinions are any more valid than the next guy's, but at the same time, I can't pretend that everyone's opinion is equal in merit and logic, and have a big happy hold hands kumbaya over our differences. Some people simply go online and post their opinions without any thought or logic, simply because they can. I think that 343 industries has read these posts and incorporated that malformed logic and non-existent theory of casuals who don't know much about the design of video games into Halo 4, and the results are just that: A game effectively created with no logic, theory, or intelligent design; a game that is woefully unsuccessful and un-fun.

 

I know this might seem harsh, and I must apologize for this,  but I do believe that some opinions are "right" and "wrong". I believe that people who think sprint is good for Halo are wrong. I believe that people who think loadouts are good for Halo are wrong. And I also believe that people who believe that inaccurate guns with heaps of error are wrong, please do not take offense. I'm not here to be condescending or a jerk, but I care a lot about the future of Halo, and I will do everything I can to present logic and theory based arguments in attempts to change the opinions of people on the internet, as other people's arguments has affected my own.

 

So when we talk about this function or that feature, I will go back and forth with logical arguments tirelessly, because I don't hold my own opinion in any great esteem. Instead I value logic, and theory. I never want these discussions to degrade to "yeah well you just want Halo to be YOUR way", because that is not true. 

 

I want Halo to be the best it can be, nothing more.