Why Halo should KEEP betrayal.

[Delpen9]

The typical response to this issue has been: "I hate betraying people. I get so mad when someone betrays me. Why you do thisss! *insert profanity*!" ;but never any a cogent arguments explaining why it is such a bad thing, beyond unbridled rage or empty claims. My allegiance lies with betrayal, and here is why. 

 

~

 

-Betrayal allows people to act-a-fool. This is a legitimate reason. When someone gets to moping, we need something to brighten us from our internal onslaught of lethargy-- our boredom and sluggish attitude. 

Why is this such a big deal? Do you merely switch games when this happens, or take a long satisfying nap? I don't think so! 

These folks want immediate redemption, which will either come from Halo or some other online massacre. We want the former to be the case, because we are all in this together, brethren. 

 

-Though this may be overlooked by the majority of you, betrayal is an enticing occurrence. It bonds you to the game through immersion; allowing us pander the foul teammate or the game itself. Sometimes I can see this unconscious connection being made. By being betrayed or witnessing a betrayal, I myself am indulging in what the game has to offer. 

 

-Recreation can really be a prick at moments, but we all need something to tease or taunt (TT). This goes hand-in-hand with the first point; although this excludes all but acquaintances... not randoms. 

 

-Betrayal has its way with competitive and custom games. Removing betrayal would also deliver a hard blow to game-type options. (Game-type option are already reduced enough, thank you) 

   

     -Corollary 1: Halo 3 had a majority of the game types this are this way, but it adds to the diversity that we desperately need. Many ninja and parkour maps require this option; and other game-types exploit this, particularly in infection/flood. 

 

    -Corollary 2: Competitive gaming requires harsh reminders-- stubborn realities of organized warfare. You can NOT betray your teammates at all costs. This serves two purposes: one being a cue to think deliberately, while the other is tough-luck. 

 

 

What do you think? If you have any other suggestions feel free to post below.

[Buns]

Anything that lets me kill Delpen or people I don't like is ok with me. 

[Maestro]

It sucks when betrayal happens, especially when some little kid betrays you since you got the Rocket Launcher before they did. But it makes sense. You shoot your teammate, they get hurt. Works that way in real life. You shoot a fellow soldier in the field and not only do they get wounded, you get into a heck of a lot of trouble. It encourages you to line up your shots and be conscious of your teammates' whereabouts and your surroundings.

[I_Make_Big_Boom]

In specific playlists they should keep betrayal, but in everything else it should be absent.

 

In most playlists I've played so far, Betrayal is allowed. I think BTB, CTF, Team Slayer, and others are allowed.

 

Anyway the reasoning behind betrayal removal is mostly due to misconduct by players and trolls. Those people who kill steal your weapons, kill you for the fun of it/trolling, and just poor skills pertaining to some teammates who can't aim worth crap.

 

An area very plagued by Betrayal is Grifball. In close proximity to ANY player when letting the hammer rip, and their dead. KDs drop, Booting abound, Ball Stealing, and "Player hammering just to kill teammates". It needs to go.

 

The argument that "Betrayal allows the Players to learn from their mistakes, and not betray again" is bull. Any player in the allowed playlist can kill you regardless of either if was accidental or intentional. Either way it has negative results. Ending of Kill Sprees, KD drop, Objective loss, and other things.

 

I'm not very up to arguing today, but from what I've seen a bunch of things stack against Betrayal implantation. Keep it for customs, and Specific Playlists, and leave the majority without Betrayal to stop trolling, and bullying.

[The Silenced]

Yes... Let the fools turn on bretheren, and clocks keep turning... as barbaric, it is reality...

 

 

Yes, however, a kind of "downgrade" should be implemented. Such as a military hierarchy. The most skilled player shall lead, the others serve...

[Sadly Just AL]

Of course, how else can I boot people I don't like?

 

Plus it makes for very entertaining clips and fails. :3 And reactions at times, but there is a point where it is just rude. That's why booting needs to be stricter.

[Connor Kenway]

Yeah betrayals can create interesting stories *looks at Silent Alpha*

[Rue]

Hmmm... Wondering if Delpen made this thread to counter my thread AGAINST betrayal?

 

Still, good write. It was interesting to read.

[ChristopherRyan]

I just have to say, the OP made almost no sense, but I do agree with friendly fire. It just makes too much sense, you shoot your teammate, he gets hurt. You must play carefully around your teammates, or suffer the consequences. I think friendly fire was removed in Halo 4 to prevent general grieving, but mostly the stealing of power weapons.

 

Here is a copy-paste from my ideal Halo build essay that covers betraying and betrayal penalties. Keep in mind, this system makes use of personal points, which are different from the kills you earn for your team. Let me know what you guys think

 

We have all had it happen to us before: you manage to get the sniper rifle first off, and then your teammate starts firing at you. Or, you are about to return the flag, and someone starts to melee you. Some people are just selfish. In Halo 4, they made it so you can't do any damage to your teammates at all. This certainly solves the problem outright, but it also makes it so you can blatantly shoot or grenade your teammates. There is a certain challenge in not doing damage to your team that has always existed in Halo, and that should be retained.

 

In Halo 3 and Reach, and maybe in Halo 2, I can't remember, you were given the option to boot your betrayer from the game if you were betrayed multiple times. This does some justice, but still makes it possible for people to betray you for the sniper at the beginning of the game, or for a flag return, or for whatever other nefarious reason. People know how to work the system, they know how to betray you, get what they want, and not suffer consequences. And if you are the victim of a betrayal like that, you can't go and kill your betrayer to get back the weapon that was rightfully yours, because the game will give the other guy the option to boot you straight off, as you retaliated; took revenge. The betrayal penalty system needs to do instant justice, and there needs to be no way to benefit from killing your teammates on purpose.

In my game you will lose personal points for hitting your teammates, if the damage you do to them contributes to their death. If you accidentally do damage to a teammate, and his shields recharge, no harm no foul. But say you accidentally grenade your teammate for 56% damage, and then he is killed by the enemy. You will lose 56 personal points (this is represented as red numbers with a minus sign), and the enemy will gain 44 personal points and a kill. The same thing happens if you do damage to yourself, and then are killed before you get your shields back. The amount of effectual damage each player does to their collective team is displayed in the post game stats. For the most part, this function alone will cause players to be much more cautious around their teammates, especially with grenades.

 

If you are betrayed even once, you will be presented with an option to kill your betrayer with the press of a button, and give him an additional 5 seconds onto his respawn time (10 seconds). You will also have the option to excuse the incident. You (the victim) will also spawn relatively close to where you were originally betrayed, and you will spawn instantly, rather than after the 5 second default respawn time without a wait; this is an attempt to leave the victim to play the game as undisturbed as possible, and to give him a chance to recollect his weapons. If someone else picks up the weapon in the process, well that's unfortunate. Furthermore, if the betrayer decides to quit the game in frustration of the long respawn timer penalty, he will not be allowed to re-enter matchmaking until the game he quit out of is finished. Though he will have the option to re-enter the same game that he quit out of. If you are betrayed twice by the same person, you will have the option to boot him from the game, and he will not be allowed to re-enter any games at all until the game you are playing is complete. There will also be no such thing as a teammate killing you by accident, but it counting as a kill from the enemy because it happened within a certain time value. Friendly damage is friendly damage regardless of when it happens.

[Composite Armour]

They need to keep betrayal and remove morons.

Betrayal just adds another bit of depth to team combat, having it gone completely would be...wrong.

[Delpen9]

 

I just have to say, the OP made almost no sense, but I do agree with friendly fire. It just makes too much sense, you shoot your teammate, he gets hurt. You must play carefully around your teammates, or suffer the consequences. I think friendly fire was removed in Halo 4 to prevent general grieving, but mostly the stealing of power weapons.

 

Here is a copy-paste from my ideal Halo build essay that covers betraying and betrayal penalties. Keep in mind, this system makes use of personal points, which are different from the kills you earn for your team. Let me know what you guys think

 

We have all had it happen to us before: you manage to get the sniper rifle first off, and then your teammate starts firing at you. Or, you are about to return the flag, and someone starts to melee you. Some people are just selfish. In Halo 4, they made it so you can't do any damage to your teammates at all. This certainly solves the problem outright, but it also makes it so you can blatantly shoot or grenade your teammates. There is a certain challenge in not doing damage to your team that has always existed in Halo, and that should be retained.

 

In Halo 3 and Reach, and maybe in Halo 2, I can't remember, you were given the option to boot your betrayer from the game if you were betrayed multiple times. This does some justice, but still makes it possible for people to betray you for the sniper at the beginning of the game, or for a flag return, or for whatever other nefarious reason. People know how to work the system, they know how to betray you, get what they want, and not suffer consequences. And if you are the victim of a betrayal like that, you can't go and kill your betrayer to get back the weapon that was rightfully yours, because the game will give the other guy the option to boot you straight off, as you retaliated; took revenge. The betrayal penalty system needs to do instant justice, and there needs to be no way to benefit from killing your teammates on purpose.

In my game you will lose personal points for hitting your teammates, if the damage you do to them contributes to their death. If you accidentally do damage to a teammate, and his shields recharge, no harm no foul. But say you accidentally grenade your teammate for 56% damage, and then he is killed by the enemy. You will lose 56 personal points (this is represented as red numbers with a minus sign), and the enemy will gain 44 personal points and a kill. The same thing happens if you do damage to yourself, and then are killed before you get your shields back. The amount of effectual damage each player does to their collective team is displayed in the post game stats. For the most part, this function alone will cause players to be much more cautious around their teammates, especially with grenades.

 

If you are betrayed even once, you will be presented with an option to kill your betrayer with the press of a button, and give him an additional 5 seconds onto his respawn time (10 seconds). You will also have the option to excuse the incident. You (the victim) will also spawn relatively close to where you were originally betrayed, and you will spawn instantly, rather than after the 5 second default respawn time without a wait; this is an attempt to leave the victim to play the game as undisturbed as possible, and to give him a chance to recollect his weapons. If someone else picks up the weapon in the process, well that's unfortunate. Furthermore, if the betrayer decides to quit the game in frustration of the long respawn timer penalty, he will not be allowed to re-enter matchmaking until the game he quit out of is finished. Though he will have the option to re-enter the same game that he quit out of. If you are betrayed twice by the same person, you will have the option to boot him from the game, and he will not be allowed to re-enter any games at all until the game you are playing is complete. There will also be no such thing as a teammate killing you by accident, but it counting as a kill from the enemy because it happened within a certain time value. Friendly damage is friendly damage regardless of when it happens.

 

Almost no sense? Give me your reasons. 

[Twinreaper]

The betrayal system itself is not what is failing the community here. the big problem, is gamers failing eachother. Back in the first trilogy, you didnt really have a problem with betrayals. Looking at the reason behind this logically, points to one big addition to the franchise that is the root cause. That root cause is "commendations".

 

When Reach came out, we no longer had to worry about negative actions effecting our career in terms of levels. Hell, it pretty much became a socialist, democratic system in which everyone was awarded just for playing. This changed the playstyle and mentality of many players. For the first time, we were focused on commendation completion, and fullfilling them by any means, without a direct action or consequence for our going about it.

 

Had Halo had a solid leveling system, to go along with the commendations, you wouldnt see a whole lot of betraying. Grifball is different though. If friendly fire was turned off, it would be far to easy to have teammates group hammer you, and send you flying at 90mph towards the goal. Being able to betray teammates in that gametype, help to keep a balance to it.

[SilentGamer64]

The way I see it, might as well keep it in, because other trolling moves are going to happen anyways, like kill stealing, suiciding with a fully loaded hog, heck, one time in Reach this one guy kept taking our falcon, loading it up with our guys, and then dumping it off the edge of a cliff while jumping to safety and running over to the next falcon spawn. :/

 

The best way to deal with trolls is to report them, because even if you change up the game to make betraying impossible, they'll find other ways to grief their teammates, guaranteed.

[BaconShelf]

I disagree on every point. The amount of times people have EMP'd and blown up my vehicles, or hit me in the back to cause me to miss a sniper shot, or stuck me to capture a flag, there is no point and no advantage apart from allowing idiots to piss off everyone else because "you took my snipuh"

[ChristopherRyan]

So fix the betrayal boot system, don't just take away friendly fire. 

[Italian plumbing]

I highly disagree with that thou I see your point of view when im going good like 20 kills in a row and I get betrayed it is the worst thing there is no pressure in that it doesn't intice me to ruin someone elses day but thats just my opinion and when some squeaker wants to have something u got and they kill u for it it is very much pathetic I see no logic in being flustered or being a D..K to someone else and if u want to betray go on griffball or something some of us are trying to play

[Coldfreeze]

Betrayal should alwaya be a part of Halo, even in griffball. In grifball you can't be booted for a betrayal which in turn makes teamkilling for "fun" an option, but also requires tactiful thinking. Killing your teammates means losing a vital part of your team. So you need to be completely aware of your surroundings and teamwork becomes a must.

 

In btb, ts and other competative game modes it requires the same and adds a layer of depth to gameplay.

 

And of course shooting your soccer buddy in real life also hurts him, so it should stay.

[ShockGazm]

They could also make it so when you shoot your team-mates by mistake that it doesn't effect health in anyway, includes explosions. When it comes to custom games, you should have the ability to turn it on or off.

[Melody]

Yeah they should keep it in the game, I mean how else am I going to kick immature boys who keep betraying me, that goes for anyone else who has to deal with annoying people. Besides I like how I can kick them from the game if the are doing these things to me.

[Warlord0520]

The typical response to this issue has been: "I hate betraying people. I get so mad when someone betrays me. Why you do thisss! *insert profanity*!" ;but never any a cogent arguments explaining why it is such a bad thing, beyond unbridled rage or empty claims. My allegiance lies with betrayal, and here is why. 

 

~

 

-Betrayal allows people to act-a-fool. This is a legitimate reason. When someone gets to moping, we need something to brighten us from our internal onslaught of lethargy-- our boredom and sluggish attitude. 

Why is this such a big deal? Do you merely switch games when this happens, or take a long satisfying nap? I don't think so! 

These folks want immediate redemption, which will either come from Halo or some other online massacre. We want the former to be the case, because we are all in this together, brethren. 

 

-Though this may be overlooked by the majority of you, betrayal is an enticing occurrence. It bonds you to the game through immersion; allowing us pander the foul teammate or the game itself. Sometimes I can see this unconscious connection being made. By being betrayed or witnessing a betrayal, I myself am indulging in what the game has to offer. 

 

-Recreation can really be a prick at moments, but we all need something to tease or taunt (TT). This goes hand-in-hand with the first point; although this excludes all but acquaintances... not randoms. 

 

-Betrayal has its way with competitive and custom games. Removing betrayal would also deliver a hard blow to game-type options. (Game-type option are already reduced enough, thank you) 

   

     -Corollary 1: Halo 3 had a majority of the game types this are this way, but it adds to the diversity that we desperately need. Many ninja and parkour maps require this option; and other game-types exploit this, particularly in infection/flood. 

 

    -Corollary 2: Competitive gaming requires harsh reminders-- stubborn realities of organized warfare. You can NOT betray your teammates at all costs. This serves two purposes: one being a cue to think deliberately, while the other is tough-luck. 

 

 

What do you think? If you have any other suggestions feel free to post below.

 

Keep betrayal but remove booting

[RedStarRocket91]

Betrayal is a good concept implemented poorly. When making a decision about whether or not to include a game mechanic, the most important thing to ask is why it's being included: not how it's going to work or what it will do, but what the point of including it is. With betrayal, the objective was to encourage players to be careful with their shots, and to give drawbacks to otherwise very powerful weapons like grenades and Rocket Launchers. Sure, you could just start chucking explosives into a heated fight and hope for the best, but the possibility of actually losing points rather than gaining them means it's a bad idea.

 

The problem with having friendly-fire damage is that it's often exploited. Literally anyone who's ever held a Sniper Rifle or equivalent will have a story of the time where they were minding their own business when some idiot on their own team ran up to them and killed them just so they could pick it up. Other times, they'll stand in your way so you can't shoot without hurting them, keep punching you to make you an easy target for opponents, shoot at you to scope you out, or any one of a dozen things which means if you want to have a few seconds to actually play the game you're basically forced to betray them, meaning that even though they were the ones who were ruining the game, you're the one who gets kicked for it. This kind of behaviour was so common in Halo 3 and Reach that I stopped bothering to pick up power weapons on some maps, and eventually quit playing Big Team Battle altogether. It hasn't happened to me at all outside of custom games in Halo 4.

 

And then of course it's abused in other ways by griefers and trolls. Teammates deliberately shooting you once you've taken damage so they can kill you without it counting as a betrayal, destroying friendly vehicles because they don't want anyone but themselves driving them (anyone remember the Mantis, Plasma Pistol pre-update combo?), learning exactly how many times they can get away with it in order to upset other teammates and boot them when they get angry and fight back: even if the betrayal system does encourage precision over just spamming fire - and that's debatable, especially in older games where you could carry 4 of each grenade - the way it's currently implemented brings up a whole host of its own problems.

 

What's needed is a better system for calculating intentional betrayals, and to discourage bad behaviour and abuse. A good start would be altering the way players pick up weapons so that if they've betrayed or been betrayed by a teammate, they can't pick up weapons from their corpse: this discourages team killing just because you want someone's weapon. An even better way would be trying to code a system which works out the intent of the person who performed the betrayal, perhaps based on the proximity of the victim to an opponent, when the shot was fired if there's travel time, if the player had landed shots on an enemy immediately prior to the betrayal, etc: this would be the best way of doing it, although I have no idea how hard it would be to code, and of course there would no doubt be cases where the system got it wrong, allowing griefers to get away with it and punishing players who've killed teammates completely by accident.

 

The last way would be to re-introduce separate playlists for Ranked and Social. Friendly fire could just be set to 'Off' in social playlists (because it's mean to be relaxed, not competitive) and betrayals in Ranked would directly affect whether you rank up or down after a winning game, because I think far fewer people would deliberately teamkill if they thought it would hurt their standing.

[Silent Orbis]

Betrayals make for great memories -- Very important, all I care for.

[Is not JL]

You see

 

Without betrayals

 

You cannot punish the idiots. You are not punshed for idiocy. Instead, you are encouraged to be stupid; to stuck your teammate and let them run in; to shoot your guns without hesitation. 

 

Betrayals is a must.

 

(Also trolling is wonderful)

[Tactical Suicide]

nothing better when in a close stand-off game when you land a 2 for 1 with the snipe, but one of them was your own team mate

[sindronian]

I'm fine with having a betrayel system that makes sense, unlike Halo Reach's system. If a team mate of mine walks up to me and punches me in the face twice or runs me over with a ghost I get no option to kick him. That's fine, maybe it was an acciddent, probably not. So now I accidentally splatter the same guy, or I do it purposley as revenge....whatever. Now he gets the option to kick me. This is infuriating.

I think the system should be nice and simple. Betray the same guy twice and you're out. If you made two mistakes, the lesson is to be more careful. If you were being an A hole, well you just got kicked for it.

This way, you can get back the guy who betrayed you without having to worry about a cycle.

I think the total number of possible betrayels over all team mates should be 2-3.

People who screw up first should be punished. Sure you can argue taking revenge isn't the best course of action but you shouldn't have a system which automatically gives A holes leverage over you.

Now, what about the guys punching/shooting you but not killing you? While the obvious solution to that is damage percentage. How much percent of the damage you dealt was on friendlies and how much of it was on enemies? This is not hard to do. If the system detects that a player has done enough damage points to his team-mates worth 5 kills. While obviously auto-boot this colossal meatball.

Killing your allies shouldn't dictate you getting booted. The amount of damage you do to your allies SHOULD. It is easy to detect whether some guy is finishing off his allies (number of betrayel killing blows) as well.

So in conclusion I suppose 343i should find the sweet spot between the amount of betrayel kills and the amount of damage done to allies. Give me a day, maybe less and I'm sure I could refine this system to something way better than what 343i pooped out on Halo 4.

The damage percentage idea is already evident in Chivalry Medieval Warfare and works like a charm. The only issue with it is when you are in early game, ally damage percentages are exxagerated. Also easy to fix.

#REKT
#ThinkHarder343i

Unless 343 is confident that they're system is super smart and can determine if it was an accident or not to the 99th percentile I would be much more comofrtable with the system above.