Did 343 ruin the Halo series?

[BaconShelf]

Bungie wanted to leave before Halo 3 and make a new franchise, Destiny. their contract with Microsoft forced them to make two more games before they could leave- it wasn't the direction halo was going that made them want to quit, thy never even wanted to make a trilogy. They only eve planned to do CE and move on.

[BATMAN]

I really think it's safe to say that Twin, once again, hit the nail on the head perfectly...

 

.. critical hit, sir. Why not run for president?

[Wam]

Let's at LEAST be happy 343 was able to pick up where Halo 3 left off, considering the rough patch Bungie had with MS.

Frankly, 343 did a good job, not perfect, but acceptable. This time, I think 343 is finally prepared to give the full package in Halo 5. The impression this next game will give is STRICTLY important to 343's reputation. But of course, this all boils down to whether you want it perfect or not.

 

*Cough* *Cough*

[X51000]

I dont think they ~ruined~ it, but they definitely took a lot of liberties in the way they held the series, essentially they took what was in the Bungie-halo universe and fluffed it into the 343-halo universe. IMO the feel of the halo universe drastically changed when 343 and Bungie traded hands, I sorta feel like their atmospheres are very different in nature (post-Halo 4 feels rather comic booky if you know what I mean by that). Do I like the new atmosphere? Well, tbh I don't dislike it, but it certainly isn't the same halo feel that got me into the series. What I absolutely don't like is the way 343i ignored the existing halo communities and existing halo content, and only focused on what they could create or what became new around the time of Halo 4. That isn't the right way to handle it, when you are given a fictional universe to guide you shouldnt make your own path you should stick to what was already there and continue it as best as you can.

 

tl;dr 343i isn't doing a bad job, but they are handling things differently than Bungie handled it, and unfortunately we were expecting the later.

 

On the topic of Bungie, I wanna say they bit off a bit more than they could chew when it comes to Destiny. I have a feeling a lot of the DLC and lesser appreciated elements were pushed by Activision to get a working game out on time. Sorta like what happened with Halo 2 except Halo 2 came out much better.

[BaconShelf]

 

I dont think they ~ruined~ it, but they definitely took a lot of liberties in the way they held the series, essentially they took what was in the Bungie-halo universe and fluffed it into the 343-halo universe. IMO the feel of the halo universe drastically changed when 343 and Bungie traded hands, I sorta feel like their atmospheres are very different in nature (post-Halo 4 feels rather comic booky if you know what I mean by that). Do I like the new atmosphere? Well, tbh I don't dislike it, but it certainly isn't the same halo feel that got me into the series. What I absolutely don't like is the way 343i ignored the existing halo communities and existing halo content, and only focused on what they could create or what became new around the time of Halo 4. That isn't the right way to handle it, when you are given a fictional universe to guide you shouldnt make your own path you should stick to what was already there and continue it as best as you can.

 

tl;dr 343i isn't doing a bad job, but they are handling things differently than Bungie handled it, and unfortunately we were expecting the later.

 

On the topic of Bungie, I wanna say they bit off a bit more than they could chew when it comes to Destiny. I have a feeling a lot of the DLC and lesser appreciated elements were pushed by Activision to get a working game out on time. Sorta like what happened with Halo 2 except Halo 2 came out much better.

 

 

actually, 343i is paying more attention to lesser known parts of the lore; ilovebees, Second Sunrise Over new Mombasa, clearing up several factual inconsistencies between Reach game and book, Halo 3 Terminals, Halo: Reach datapads, Halo Wars related content, clearing up parts of Halo 3's mess of a story and so forth are all things 343 has been paying attention to since their reign began. Bungie was quite happy to leave gaping plot holes and contradictions in the story and never spoke of some aspects again; 343i is the opposite.

[Twinreaper]

Actually let me stop you right there Baconshelf.  In various Bungie VidOCS Joe Staten himself stated that the games are completely separate from the Halo Universe Lore found to be considered cannon in the books.  IIRC he even stated this yet again when a lot of the fanbase asked Bungie about why Reach was the way it was in-game. 

 

Please don't mention plot holes when it comes to Halo.  343i has their own set of huge stinking plot holes with Halo 4 alone.  I will say though, until 343i puts out a few more standalone games we cannot say who is better between the age old now argument of Bungie vs 343i.  To gauge who is better, we need the same amount of releases to compare to.

[BaconShelf]

Actually let me stop you right there Baconshelf.  In various Bungie VidOCS Joe Staten himself stated that the games are completely separate from the Halo Universe Lore found to be considered cannon in the books.  IIRC he even stated this yet again when a lot of the fanbase asked Bungie about why Reach was the way it was in-game. 

 

Please don't mention plot holes when it comes to Halo.  343i has their own set of huge stinking plot holes with Halo 4 alone.  I will say though, until 343i puts out a few more standalone games we cannot say who is better between the age old now argument of Bungie vs 343i.  To gauge who is better, we need the same amount of releases to compare to.

 

Herein lies the problem. bungie did not care about the lore, so they did not invest much care into their continuity, and cameup with the games>books thing to disguise their laziness.

 

The only real plot holes found in 343's work are the existence of K5, which is being retconned to oblivion right now. what was wrong with H4? I do not recall any kind of plot hole in it. though I'm interested in hearing what you think was a plot hole.

Edited April 22, 2015 by BaconShelf

[X51000]

Herein lies the problem. bungie did not care about the lore, so they did not invest much care into their continuity, and cameup with the games>books thing to disguise their laziness.

 

The only real plot holes found in 343's work are the existence of K5, which is being retconned to oblivion right now. what was wrong with H4? I do not recall any kind of plot hole in it. though I'm interested in hearing what you think was a plot hole.

 

Bungie very much cared for the lore, they care for a lot of the lore they write just look at what they did for Destiny. The difference is that Bungie was trying to steer the lore in one way and the novels more or less hijacked the universe (strong word but hear me out). I have a huge respect for 343i because they went through and honored all that the lore-community provided, but I also have a big respect fro Bungie because they had an idea for the universe and they really wanted to stick with it.

 

Example of how the universe has changed:

-Bungie's original lore was going to lead to the Forerunners to be revealed simply as advanced humans, and the modern humans being direct descendants of them This is why 343 GS says "You ARE Forerunner" to Master Chief in Halo 3. It was 343i decision to make the two races completely different and go in that direction instead (there is a twitter conversation that backs me up, I can source it if you want)

 

343i decided to pay very careful attention to what the fanbase had already written and expand the universe in the direction the fans were moving it. However it's a bit rude to say Bungie did not care for the lore because of games>novels. It's not lazy it's called steering your own series because that's the way they wanted it and had planned it before the full unraveling of the series. They had good ideas for where to go, but if they had to go through and honor all the new externally written stuff they might have to redo an entire set of endings just because an author or two wanted to take over.

 

I should also note that 343i could spare an entirely separate department for the lore and did a neat way of wrapping up (most) loose ends.

 

Neither way is wrong, just a different way off handling it. 

[BaconShelf]

 

Bungie very much cared for the lore, they care for a lot of the lore they write just look at what they did for Destiny. The difference is that Bungie was trying to steer the lore in one way and the novels more or less hijacked the universe (strong word but hear me out). I have a huge respect for 343i because they went through and honored all that the lore-community provided, but I also have a big respect fro Bungie because they had an idea for the universe and they really wanted to stick with it.

 

Example of how the universe has changed:

-Bungie's original lore was going to lead to the Forerunners to be revealed simply as advanced humans, and the modern humans being direct descendants of them This is why 343 GS says "You ARE Forerunner" to Master Chief in Halo 3. It was 343i decision to make the two races completely different and go in that direction instead (there is a twitter conversation that backs me up, I can source it if you want)

 

343i decided to pay very careful attention to what the fanbase had already written and expand the universe in the direction the fans were moving it. However it's a bit rude to say Bungie did not care for the lore because of games>novels. It's not lazy it's called steering your own series because that's the way they wanted it and had planned it before the full unraveling of the series. They had good ideas for where to go, but if they had to go through and honor all the new externally written stuff they might have to redo an entire set of endings just because an author or two wanted to take over.

 

I should also note that 343i could spare an entirely separate department for the lore and did a neat way of wrapping up (most) loose ends.

 

Neither way is wrong, just a different way off handling it.

 

Yeah, and Bungie's only decent writer quit because they didn't want to hae a decent story. Joseph Staten wanted destiny to be a lot darker and, I don't know, have a plot. The grimoire is about te most quality writing you're going to see from the Bungie team from now on, and even then, statements like "the games can override te books" isn't exactly doing much to try and get those who have invested time and money on your side or believe you actually respect the EU. Not does calling spin-off games like halo wars "whoring out the franchise" and actively overriding preestablished setting make someone a good contender for caring about the story they're telling.

 

On the other hand, 343 has a lore department (at least 3 people, not including Frankie and Bonnie) and took (and still take) th careful time and patience to release thing alike the 11th hour reports, data drops and other similar posts to clear up misconceptions, as well as actually release weekly Canon Fodders to talk about the lore and give us new information and answer community questions on a regular basis. Every. Week. With additional ongoing comic series, five books being released this year as well as a TV series, weekly audio logs (hunt the truth), and two games being released- it's pretty obvious 343 is doing a lot more to make sure the lore fans are a top priority rather than purely concentrating on multiplayer.

 

If we look at released EU for both;

 

Bungie (10 years)

TFoR

Flood

First Strike -these three were a Microsoft thing, Bungie didn't come up with te idea

Cole Protocol

Onyx

Landfall

ilovebees

IRIS

Graphic Novel

Bloodline(?)

Helljumper

Uprising

 

343 (8 years)

Halo Evolutions I+II

Glasslands

Thursday War

Mortal Dictata

Cryptum

Primordium

Silentium

Rebirth

Legends

Forward Unto Dawn

Nightfall

Broken Circle

New Blood

Shadow of Intent

Last Light

Saint's Testimony

Shadow of Intent

Escalation

Initiation

Huntthetruth

 

 

If this doesn't count as more respect and love for the Halo story and universe (and its fans)...

 

Seriously, Bungie didn't care at all about their expanded universe, they didn't want to include long-established characters like blue team or less known characters like Ben in, instead wanting to come up with more boring military cliches and generally messing with established stuff (SIII's having MJOLNIR, Reach timeline, Halo 3's massive plot inconsistencies) to the point where ODST's characters were only half-decent was because of who voiced them (Firefly cast). 343 treats all sources of lore equally and is doing it's best to re-introduce old characters and tie up inconsistencies and provide miscellaneous information on all aspects of Halo. Bungie pretty much never did that.

 

So I just read through the latest responses and I will say just this. Yes Bungie chose NOT to renew their contract to work on Halo. Bungie was not happy with the direction that Halo was taking and Microsoft's controlling development pressure. Reach was the game that Halo 3 should have been to Bungie. Also, as much as Bungie loved Halo, it just wasn't their game anymore. They felt they had no real control over it at the end of the contract and felt they needed to move onto another project.

 

Bungie could have worked on Destiny and released it themselves, except they just don't have the money to do all that as an independent studio. Every developer needs a financial backer. The sole reason Activision backed Bungie so quickly, is because they saw how Halo took off. If you were a publisher, who had a chance to snag and back the development company that directly competed with one of your biggest FPS titles, CoD....wouldn't you want to pick them up and publish their next big thing before Microsoft?

 

The partnership between Activision and Bungie wasn't just about promises, it was about Bungie having both creative freedom to make a game they WANTED to make, and have the financial backing they needed to survive and retain certain rights to their newly created IP.

 

That being said, lets talk about 343 Industries. So many people hear and read about how many Bungie employees switched over to 343i to keep working on Halo because they love it so much. BULL****! Any employee that was "allowed" to leave Bungie or was offered something more to leave, obviously was not an employee that Bungie felt was integral to the company or the new games they wanted to create. For all we know, half the employees that left Bungie to work for 343i, could have been low level programmers, or even simple environment artists.

 

Point being, judging from the blunders and mishandles that have occurred under 343i in terms of launch, support and execution for Halo, all logical thinking leans towards these employees not being very good or particularly skilled within their own realm or game development. Frank, was not a big part of Bungie. He just wasn't. Bungie would have been just fine without him when they had Halo. Now if it had been Joe Staton or Jason Jones that they had working for them heading the franchise up now, things would have been greatly different on the 343i front.

 

Summary.....343i didn't ruin Halo. Microsoft themselves ruined Halo by forcing their own people and the development teams to rush through the titles and emulate aspects of other FPS titles without a slow migration to implement features or innovation.

Well only like, 3 or 4 Bungie devs joined 343. Frankie being one of them.

[X51000]

^^^^^^^^Don't forget though that Bungie did include the terminals....

[BaconShelf]

 

^^^^^^^^Don't forget though that Bungie did include the terminals....

 

 

Bungie made 7 terminals and some datapads that make no sense within established canon.

 

Sadie's Story from ODST was actually made by another studio, whose name I forget.

[DIABLO 0166]

I hope Bungie would return and actually take out the stupid call of duty bull crap out of Halo. 343 destroyed what Bungie created. That is the reason why I started a rebellion against 343. 343 sucks now at days.

Edited September 21, 2015 by RedStarRocket91
thread locked, please do not revive dead topics.