Spartan 2 vs Spartan 3 Augmentation

[AAA137]

I understand that the Spartan 2s augmentations were more surgical while the Spartan 3s were more chemical.

 

Would the S3 augmentations produce the same improvements in physical strength, bone density, and reaction times that the S2 augmentations would? Would a S2 John be better then an S3 John?

 

Also, could the Spartan 3s use the MJOLNIR armor without being crushed?

 

 

 

 

[RedStarRocket91]

Ghosts of Onyx actually goes into quite a bit of detail about the Spartan-III programme, so if you haven't already done so, it's definitely worth reading if you want to find out more about the Spartan-IIIs. Admittedly it's been a while since I last opened it, so a lot of this could be wrong, but from what I remember it's never actually made clear whether or not Spartan-IIIs are as strong as Spartan-IIs: Gamma company in particular is very uncertain, due to the fact that they received extra enhancements which meant they could go beyond the human body's normal limits.

 

As for whether Spartan-IIIs could use Mjolnir - yes, there are at least six documented instances, as the members of Noble Team used Mark V Mjolnir armour during the fall of Reach, and Thom-A293 wore it during a previous mission. There's concept art for Rosenda-A344's armour as well, but as she's never actually seen wearing it in any Halo media we can't be sure that she actually was capable of wearing it. However, it isn't clear whether or not those Spartan-IIIs seen wearing Mjolnir armour received any additional augments or not in order to do so, as prior to Reach, Spartan-IIIs were only ever seen using weaker, SPI armour.

 

Notably, although Noble Team seems to have filled a role somewhat similar to the Headhunters, another Spartan-III special ops team, the latter only used an advanced model of SPI armour, even though Mjolnir would seemingly have suited their role better: however, it's possible that the Headhunters were, like most Spartan-IIIs, just considered expendable, and so weren't equipped with better armour for simple budgetary reasons. Eventually, a lot of surviving Spartan-IIIs were adopted into the Spartan-IV programme, in which everyone wears Mjolnir armour - but again, it's never made clear whether this is because the Spartan-IVs received the same enhancements as the IIIs, better enhancements which were retroactively granted to the IIIs, or simply because the new generation of Mjolnir armour needed less augmentation to safely operate than its predecessors. In any case, ultimately at least some Spartan-IIIs were capable of wearing Mjolnir, so in broad terms, the answer is yes.

 

In terms of raw strength, reactions, and toughness, it's still unclear, but there are a few examples within the games. At the start of Reach, Noble Six is pinned down by a Covenant Elite, and although capable of punching the Elite, still needs help from the rest of the team to throw it off entirely: by contrast, during the second encounter with the Promethean Knights on Requiem in Halo 4, the Master Chief is able to free himself with a single kick. Unfortunately, as usual there are a few things muddying the waters here - firstly, the Chief is wearing a significantly more advanced version of Mjolnir armour than Six was, meaning it's difficult to tell whether that extra strength was simply due to his suit, and it's also not clear exactly how much a Promethean Knight weighs in relation to a Covenant Elite - it's possible that they're actually not very heavy, as there are a few hints that they, like everything on Requiem, are formed purely from hard light rather than actual materials.

 

Another set of examples can be found in the various falls from space - Six suffers moderate injuries after his fall from the Ardent Prayer in the aftermath of Operation Uppercut, while equipped with a specialised re-entry pack: however, the Chief is back on his feet, apparently unharmed, within minutes of a similar fall from space with nothing but a large sheet of Forerunner metal for protection. Again, it isn't clear whether this is due to the more advanced Mark VI Mjolnir suit he was wearing, which as we've seen in Halo 4, may have had some sort of thrusters built into the armour itself to help slow him down, or simply due to the game mechanics not including a visible health bar.

 

What is certain is that Spartan-IIIs were at least as capable of the same levels of combat effectiveness as Spartan-IIs: Noble Six is specifically noted to be the only Spartan, from any programme prior to the fall of Reach, to hold the same rating as the Master Chief, and while he may have been unusually effective it at least proves that Spartan-IIIs could match Spartan-IIs, at least in combat abilities.

[AAA137]

Hi RedStar,

 

Thanks a lot for the post. Haven't read any of the novels (reading the Forerunner Trilogy now). What gave the impression (though a stretch) that the S3's were weaker are these 2 quotes:

 

http://www.halopedia.org/Project_CHRYSANTHEMUM

 

"However, there were a small number of SPARTAN-III candidates—called "cat 2s" by Kurt Ambrose—who would have met the requirements for the SPARTAN-II program; some of them would later be removed from their mainline companies, given better equipment and assigned to separate special forces units."

 

I thought the S3s weren't issued (minus the budget) the MJOLNIR was:

Less Strict Genetic Criteria + Dumbed-Down? Augmentation = Weaker Spartans?

I wasn't sure if surgical augmentation was further needed.

 

Also from Glasslands by Osman:

“No. You need the mechanical augmentations to wear Mjolnir, or it’ll just snap your spine.”

“Ceramic bone implants, mainly. Makes them pretty well unbreakable. I only had the genetic and biochemical enhancements."

 

But the newer S3 chemical augmenations may have made the surgical obselete.

 

 

 

In regards to Gamma Company, it looks like they were physically and mentally more resilient to the S2s:

 

http://www.halopedia.org/Project_CHRYSANTHEMUM

The mutagen 009762-OO, administered only to the Spartans of Gamma Company, makes the Spartans almost completely immune to shock under extreme stress, allowing them to endure injuries and physical pain beyond even a SPARTAN-II

 

http://www.halopedia.org/SPARTAN-III_Gamma_Company

Every candidate survived their training and augmentations. In addition to the enhancements received by the previous SPARTAN-III generations, they were injected with illegal drugs that altered the frontal lobes of their brains to enhance aggression, strength, endurance, and tolerance to injury.

[Drizzy_Dan]

Without going into too much detail and copying Red's answer I'd say that Spartan II's were at a physical advantage because they're augmentations were more extreme. But it's for the same reason that they gave the Spartan III's a different augmentation. They were able to make more of them without losing any in the process and they were cheaper. It's exactly as you said so the augmentations for the III's don't change bone density and such because it's chemical and tuned to kick in under life threatening stress. This is also why they wear SPI armor instead of Mjolnir armor.

[RedStarRocket91]

Hi AAA137,

 

As I say, it's been a while since I read Ghosts of Onyx, which is where the information of Project CHRYSANTHEMUM comes from, so I could be a bit wrong on the details. The thing is, until Reach came out, there weren't any Spartan-IIIs depicted in Mjolnir armour at all - and even the supplementary materials that came with Reach didn't really offer anything in the way of explanation as to whether S-IIIs could natively wear Mjolnir armour, or further augmentation was needed. Unfortunately, the best we can really do here is guess based on the details of the chemical augmentation process.

 

The Fall of Reach gives quite a lot of details on the Spartan-II programme, and the first instance of Mjolnir Mark IV armour being deployed: while the bone implants are really important, the reason it needs to be Spartans who use it, rather than just ordinary soldiers with hardened bones, is because only they have the necessary reaction speeds and fine muscle control necessary to handle the armour's sensitivity. I actually had a quick look at the Spartan-II augments, and apparently their bone hardening process only affects ~3% of the bones directly, while the rest is chemical: annoyingly, it's not stated whether or not this is the same chemical used to harden the bones of Spartan-IIIs, or if a more advanced version was used, so again we have to guess a bit here. In terms of reaction times, in their appearances in Ghosts of Onyx and the Kilo-Five trilogy the Spartan-IIIs do appear to be similar to Spartan-IIs, though again we can only speculate.

 

Anyway, as far as I know the main reason Spartan-IIIs weren't issued Mjolnir armour is just budgetary: they were designed to be expendable, so there was no need to give them really top-level equipment. As usual, it's never outright stated whether that includes the price of augments to make them capable of wearing it, or just the cost of the armour as they could have worn it anyway.

 

Hopefully, at some point 343i will come out with a proper, detailed lore explanation about the augments the various Spartan generation have had!

[Vaulting♥Frog]

Ok let me help out here since I still remember quite a bit about this subject.

 

The augmentations that the Spartan-II program received:

 

Carbide ceramic ossification - not to exceed 3% of total bone mass due to loss of white blood cells. Basically makes bones unbreakable

 

Muscular enhancement injections - increase tissue density and reduce recovery times

 

Catalytic thyroid implant - growth hormone to boost skeletal and muscle tissue growth

 

Occipital capillary reversal - increases visual perception in all light levels

 

Superconducting fibrification of neural dendrites - boosts reflexes by 300%, also marked increases in intelligence, creativity and memory

 

 

All of which were done with invasive surgery. Not a pretty picture for the Spartan-IIs.

 

 

The Spartan-III program had only these new additions:

 

Unknown name of augmentation - while I do not know the specific name of the augmentation I know what it does. It mutates select areas of the subjects frontal lobe increasing aggression in times of stress, basically reducing them to a more primitive state to endure massive injury without stopping. They will still die eventually but not immediately.

 

Miso-olanzapine and cyclodexine-4 - an antipsychotic and bipolar intergration drugs designed to offset the unknown named augmentation to preserve rational thought and higher brain functions.

 

Keep in mind these three new augmentations were given to only Gamma Company of the Spartan-III program. Alpha and Beta Companies did not have these what so ever. Instead they received the same augmentations as the Spartan-II program, only updated so they could be applied to a wider gene base.

 

Augmentation wise the Spartan-IIs and the Spartan-IIIs are nearly identical with the exception of Gamma Company. I cannot speak for the Spartan-IV program because I honestly have no clue. There is no particular reason why they couldn't wear MJOLNIR armor however as that armor is so bloody expensive it just wouldn't be cost effective to have 930 suits of it made for what are basically expendable troops.

 

Oh and for the record (once again) I am still of the belief that Halo: Reach (the game) is a giant turd upon any lore in the Halo universe. Bungie screwed the pooch with that one. Halo: Ghosts of Onyx accounted for every single Spartan-III surviving and dead. Alpha Company was wiped out completely at K7-49 (300 KIA confirmed). Beta Company was almost completely wiped out on Pegasi Delta (298 KIA confirmed, 2 survivors). Gamma company was destroyed on Onyx with nearly 100% casualties (all of team Katana survived in stasis, of team Saber only 3 survived which is a total of 8 ). To be exact only 8 out of the 330 of Gamma Company survived, that is barely over 2%.

 

Since they were all accounted for on other locations (and knowing the numbers of each company and how they were deployed) no Spartan-IIIs could have been on Reach much less anywhere else those other "stories" describe. Giant bloody middle finger to previously established lore no matter how you look at it if you ask me.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Vaulting♥Frog

[Caboose The Ace]

^

 

Honestly I think Halo 4 is the biggest offender to Spartan lore, not Reach.

 

From the looks of things, anyone can became a Spartan four with armour comparable to Spartan II armour.

 

I thought a group of Spartan IIs ( Training, Augmentations and Armour ) cost as much as a fully manned battle fleet.

 

Not the case with Spartan fours....

 

Edited February 19, 2015 by Caboose The Ace

[Vaulting♥Frog]

Caboose, the aim was to make Spartans cheaper in both armor and training while using a huge gene pool for mass production. The Spartan-IV program is the next evolution of that idea. The Spartan-III program was trying to do it as well but the tech for the augmentations wasn't up to scratch yet. The Spartan-IV program fits in perfectly with the lore to be honest.

 

Taking fully grown soldiers and turning them to super soldiers was the goal and they accomplished it.

[Caboose The Ace]

^

 

The Spartan II project costs as much as a Battle fleet. Spartan IIs were effective but cost too much....

 

Spartan IIIs are much cheaper and able to be mass produced ( via bigger gene pool ) Armour was cheaper as was the augmentations but they made that all up though shear numbers.

 

Spartan IVs appear to have Spartan II type armour, with possible Spartan II level of augmentations.  

 

No, just no. The Spartan III project made sense. Cheaper but made up though numbers. ( As they were sent on suicide missions that even Odsts could not accomplish, ) Spartan IIs were not sent on these missions also, because they were invaluable.

 

Spartan IVs seems like the evolution of the Spartan III idea, but it makes no sense of how they achieved it.

[Vaulting♥Frog]

Caboose you make me want to hit my head against a brick wall for that load of nonsense right there. You don't seem to grasp the concept of mass production economics.

 

Manufacturing equipment becomes cheaper once methods of production are optimized. Logic would dictate that if they are mass producing Spartans then they would have mass manufacturing of MJOLNIR armor systems for those new Spartans. Following said logic, for mass production to work the product must be cost effective.

 

With mass production you get cheaper costs of producing your product simply because you turn it into a cookie cutter operation. Set patterns are followed cutting out a whole boat load of nonsense to get a uniform product. Materials are cheaper for production due to buying in bulk as well.

 

The only truly costly thing is the R&D Department researching potential technologies for future integration. That is simply because it involves a huge amount of trial and error with no set templates.

 

If anything the Spartan-IV program is far cheaper and more effective than the Spartan-II program ever was.

[The Director]

^

 

The Spartan II project costs as much as a Battle fleet. Spartan IIs were effective but cost too much....

 

Spartan IIIs are much cheaper and able to be mass produced ( via bigger gene pool ) Armour was cheaper as was the augmentations but they made that all up though shear numbers.

 

Spartan IVs appear to have Spartan II type armour, with possible Spartan II level of augmentations.  

 

No, just no. The Spartan III project made sense. Cheaper but made up though numbers. ( As they were sent on suicide missions that even Odsts could not accomplish, ) Spartan IIs were not sent on these missions also, because they were invaluable.

 

Spartan IVs seems like the evolution of the Spartan III idea, but it makes no sense of how they achieved it.

It really does though. The Spartan II program cost a lot of money because no one had actually done it successfully before. The chemicals used to enhance the abilities of the chosen candidates were fairly new and very experimental. As a result more than half the candidates 'washed out' due to side effects from the chemicals. 

 

However, the program was still considered a success, so they did further experiments and found that they could achieve a similar effect over a broader range of candidates and thus the Spartan III program was born. The time and money that went into both of these projects was extraordinary. 

 

Then humanity began experimenting with forerunner and covenant technology and made quite a few massive leaps in science due to this. Not to mention what had already been learned from both the Spartan II and III programs. It's not only feasible that the leap in technology would assist them in their endeavors to create super soldiers, but it would be kind of silly if it hadn't, especially with the advanced technology they already had available. Remember, during each and every spartan program data was being gathered and experiments were being conducted in the hopes that one day the genetic modification they were doing would be cheaper and easier to use on a broader range of people.

 

As far as the cost of the Spartan IV project, nobody said it was cheap. The drugs would, by that time, be easier to make but they are being used on a lot more people than they were previously. The armor would also be cheaper to make due to mass production as well.

[RedStarRocket91]

^

 

The Spartan II project costs as much as a Battle fleet. Spartan IIs were effective but cost too much....

 

Spartan IIIs are much cheaper and able to be mass produced ( via bigger gene pool ) Armour was cheaper as was the augmentations but they made that all up though shear numbers.

 

Spartan IVs appear to have Spartan II type armour, with possible Spartan II level of augmentations.  

 

No, just no. The Spartan III project made sense. Cheaper but made up though numbers. ( As they were sent on suicide missions that even Odsts could not accomplish, ) Spartan IIs were not sent on these missions also, because they were invaluable.

 

Spartan IVs seems like the evolution of the Spartan III idea, but it makes no sense of how they achieved it.

 

How does it make no sense? Are you talking the concept, or the expense? You can't just say 'it makes no sense' without specifying exactly what it is that 'doesn't make sense': those are weasel words and all it suggests is that you want to take a shot at 343i, but don't actually have any points to make, any evidence to back it up, have done any research, or even just considered the problem.

 

'How' they achieved it is pretty simple: they took the best candidates, gave them the necessary enhancements (whatever those may have been), and gave them the new Mjolnir armour. That's the 'how'. Makes perfect sense.

 

No, I'm going to assume - and as you've only given the vaguest indication of what 'doesn't make sense' to you, that's all I can do - that your problem with the Spartan-IV programme is due to the raw cost of the enhancements, armour, and equipment necessary to outfit a single Spartan. The thing is... this isn't an issue. The economy of scale dictates that if you produce 1,000 items, while the overall expense will be much greater, individually the cost will be significantly cheaper than one which was produced by itself: this is why a supermarket could sell you a bag of apples for a dollar, but if you were to visit an independent 'mom and pop' store you'd probably be paying about a dollar for a single apple.

 

The other thing is, technology gets more powerful over time, and older stuff gets cheaper: if you wanted an Xbox 360 at launch, you'd probably pay about $300 for the base model which came with the old 20GB hard drive. If you wanted to get a brand new Xbox 360 today, you'd be able to get one with a 200GB hard drive, integrated wireless, and a kinect for about $150. Heck, look at the PC market. If you wanted to build yourself a dektop with 2GB of RAM, 512MB of VRAM, a 1GHz processor, and a 500GB hard drive back in 2007, that would cost you about $700-$1000. Today, you could quite possibly build something like that for under $200. Heck, look at cell phones: getting a brick back in the 1990s would cost hundreds of dollars, and you'd often have to pay for texts and calls individually on top of that. Now, you can get something with power comparable to a laptop ad unlimited calls and texts, plus gigabytes worth of data, for under $15/month. Do not underestimate how quickly advanced technology can become commonplace and cheap.

 

Now, bear in mind, at the time the Mjolnir Mk V was introduced, it was the first time humanity had ever produced something with personal energy shielding, an absorbent gel layer, and direct integration with the brain. Of course it was going to be expensive. But as we've seen from the examples above, there's no reason, whatsoever, why both Spartan-level augmentation and advanced Mjolnir armour wouldn't become standard within the UNSC. The fact that the Spartans have their own branch now doens't show that the UNSC has suddenly gotten a lot richer - it shows us just how bad their economy is, because they've had to restrict the augmentations and armour to a specific set of soldiers rather than just rolling them out to everyone!

[Ash]

MC>Kurt>S2's>S3's>Buck>S4's>Grunt.

[Vaulting♥Frog]

Stiff breeze > MC