Halo 4 Feedback

[XBF4N]

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THATS THE POINT!

 

Legendary is supposed to be really difficult. 343 made Halo 4 legendary far too easy.

Yeah but it's gotta be doable too Caboosh, i understand it's gotta be hard but this is ridiculous, who in there right mind would want to play this. Playing Halo 4 on Legendary was difficult even if you say it wasn't but it was still fun and enjoyable, Halo 2's Legendary from what i have experienced so far is just torment.

[Caboose The Ace]

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You posted before "To each his own I guess" and that certainly reigns true here.
 
For me, Halo 4 was easy, I hardly ever died and the only time I ever found it hard was that bit on the final mission with the Promethean Knight with the incineration cannon.
 
( Granted, next time I did the mission I found it easier) But chances are we are going to do better on our second time  playing a game.
 
Halo 2 however I found much harder, some say it was just as cheap as Halo 4 because of the Brutes and yes, the Brutes are op but there are some tactics to beating unlike the Knights.
 
Still H2 did have its little bit of cheap moments but overall I prefer it because it is much harder.

"who in there right mind would want to play this"

 

Believe it or not, people like hard games.

I mean look in the news Dark souls, a series known for being hard ships 8.5 copies!

[RedStarRocket91]

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THATS THE POINT!

 

Legendary is supposed to be really difficult. 343 made Halo 4 legendary far too easy.

 

I actually agree with XBF4N on this one.

 

The thing with Halo 2 is that, while there's no denying that it's unrelentingly brutal and unforgiving, there's an awful lot of 'fake' difficulty - the gameplay isn't challenging so much as trial and error, or outright luck-based. There are more than a few sections where enemies are spawned right on top of you, or behind you, or respawn infinitely, or are placed in such a way that you have to start reacting to them before you're even aware of them if you're going to get past them: their presence isn't even telegraphed or hinted at beforehand most of the time. The last of these is completely against the idea of difficulty as ideally anyone sufficiently skilled, aware of their surroundings, and understanding of how best to use the game's mechanics and the tools which they have at their disposal should be able to complete a section on their first attempt. On Halo 2, this is often literally impossible, as without knowing exactly how, when, and where certain AI triggers operate, you will be killed simply because there are only one or two very specific courses of actions which result in success, and you're not likely to be following those on the first attempt because there's no reason to take them.

 

As for Knights? I like them. And I don't really get what people mean when they say they fight Elites with 'tactics', when really what they mean is they jump and strafe side to side while tapping at the Elite with a mid-range headshot weapon until it dies, or using the noob combo. Those are both very sensible ways to fight an Elite, but as tactics go they're fairly straightforward and simple.

 

And the thing is, Halo players have gotten really complacent over the years, which is one of the reasons I hate the BR so much: it's our solution to everything. Squad of Grunts? Strafe with the BR. Pair of Elites? Strafe with the BR. Group of Jackals? Strafe with the BR. It's not uncommon to see players refusing to pick up something as powerful as a Shotgun or a Sniper Rifle or even a Rocket Launcher because they don't want to lose their BR, and that should tell you everything about how much of a crutch it is for us. Very large portions of the playerbase even insist on starting multiplayer games with the BR, because they're so dependant on it that they don't actually know how to use the other basic weapons!

 

I think this is why so many players hate Knights. It's because they're one of the few enemies that you can't just kill by strafing with the BR. You're forced to actually do something different to the usual, lazy and repetitive approach to combat - in fact, they're one of the only enemies in the whole series who're more vulnerable to automatics than precision weapons. Even higher-ranked Knights can be taken down with a single magazine's worth of fire from the Suppressor, and provided your aim and awareness are good, assaulting them directly is actually a very effective tactic even on Legendary. But because we're so hopelessly addicted to the idea of strafing with the BR, when we come up against an enemy who that doesn't work against and we have to actually play with a tactic that's from outside our comfort zone, we accuse the enemy of being unfair and bullet spongey when in fact, they're just resistant to one particular tactic.

[Caboose The Ace]

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Personally I prefer a Dmr but that is beside the point.
 
Personally I was never dependent on a certain weapon and would use whatever is available and I think is most appropriate.
Br or no, usually if I found a Shotgun I would take it because you can lure Knights or Elites in for a melee only to get blasted in the face with a shotgun shell or two, or three.  
 
I see your point about other players being complacent but that is a person to person thing, some people are going to keep a Br no matter what, for some reason.
 
I mean if you are passing up a Sniper for a Br you are just mad.

"the gameplay isn't challenging so much as trial and error" Isn't that how most things we perceive as difficult go?
 

For example lets take a traditional boss battle for example.

 

You a probably not going to defeat the boss first time so its going to take some trial and error to know its patterns. Then after you know what it can do through trial and error you can defeat it.

[BaconShelf]

 

Just completed Halo 4 on legendary, dam that was hard but i managed to get through it. That last area is full of Knights. Halo 4 is definitely the best dam FPS i have ever played, absolutely loved every moment of it.

 

If Halo 4 was hard, then don't bother with the others.

 

Halo 4 legendary is comparable to heroic on other games, it's really easy.

[XBF4N]

Yeah i give up with Halo 2 on legendary, worst difficulty in a game i have ever played, you spend 99% of the time pinned down and not able to move. Say what you like about Halo 4 on Legendary being easy, it's a hell of better than this garbage. 

[Caboose The Ace]

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Its not garbage though, just because its difficult and trial and error does not mean its rubbish.
 
Actually I recently did a Halo 2 legendary playthrough, sure it was hard but it wasn't impossible! nor was it rubbish.
 
Baconshelf really hit the nail on the head with these words "Halo 4 legendary is comparable to heroic on other games"

 

Exactly, Legendary is supposed to be everything ramped up to a hundred. Its supposed to be insane.

 

So Legendary is working at intended on you, great.

[XBF4N]

^

 

Its not garbage though, just because its difficult and trial and error does not mean its rubbish.

 

Actually I recently did a Halo 2 legendary playthrough, sure it was hard but it wasn't impossible! nor was it rubbish.

 

Baconshelf really hit the nail on the head with these words "Halo 4 legendary is comparable to heroic on other games"

 

Exactly, Legendary is supposed to be everything ramped up to a hundred. Its supposed to be insane.

 

So Legendary is working at intended on you, great.

Mate this is garbage, i am always playing hard games like Dark Souls & Bloodborne and when you die in those games it's because you did something wrong, Halo 2's legendary is just a joke, constantly pinned and unable to move and when you do try something your dead within a second, i have played my share of extremely hard games and i am sorry but Halo 2's Legendary is just silly. I am currently playing Halo 2 on Heroic. 

[Axilus Prime]

Mate this is garbage, i am always playing hard games like Dark Souls & Bloodborne and when you die in those games it's because you did something wrong, Halo 2's legendary is just a joke, constantly pinned and unable to move and when you do try something your dead within a second, i have played my share of extremely hard games and i am sorry but Halo 2's Legendary is just silly. I am currently playing Halo 2 on Heroic. 

I can see why you feel that way, but that's not true at all. It's true that Halo 2 is brutally difficult and that without knowing what to do beforehand many parts can be next to impossible. I had that issue when I first started but I made it through. Now I can do every level in H2 with only a handful of deaths.

 

Don't give up hope. There is no joke, there is no bullcrap, just a lot of hard situations that with time and effort you can find the perfect solutions to.

[Caboose The Ace]

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If you have played Darks souls, you know a lot of levels and boss fights are simply trial and error based, much like how legendary Halo 2 is.
 
Lets use my example again

"You a probably not going to defeat the boss first time so its going to take some trial and error to know its patterns. Then after you know what it can do through trial and error you can defeat it"

[RedStarRocket91]

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If you have played Darks souls, you know a lot of levels and boss fights are simply trial and error based, much like how legendary Halo 2 is.

 

Lets use my example again

 

"You a probably not going to defeat the boss first time so its going to take some trial and error to know its patterns. Then after you know what it can do through trial and error you can defeat it"

 

Your example is terrible, Caboose. In a good boss fight, the game should provide the player with clear information about how it's going to operate mechanically, a chance to practice that kind of gameplay, and a thorough understanding of exactly how to win it - and all of this before the fight starts. The only reasons you should fail a boss fight, beyond player error, are either because you haven't made an effort to to understand the game's mechanics, or because you haven't been paying attention to the clues about how to beat the boss given in the build-up to the fight.

 

A good boss fight is a 'final exam' of sorts - a test to see whether you've gotten the hang of the gameplay up until that point. By all means it should be hard, and it should most certainly punish any errors made by the player. One of the absolute best examples is the Mr. Freeze fight in Arkham City, because you have to use every single trick and gadget you've learned up to that point in the fight - you can't just rely on one or two of your abilities. If you've taken the time to learn how to use those abilities, and understand the stealth mechanics, then it's an extremely difficult but very fun fight, and one which, barring a mistake on your own part, is something which can be beaten on the first try. It also includes plenty of audio and visual cues which not only give a sense of progress, but help indicate what to do next.

 

A bad boss fight is one which doesn't give you any hints in the build-up as to how to beat it, involves just repeating exactly the same actions over and over again over such a long period that it's basically just a test of how long it takes to make a mistake, or which introduces completely new mechanics, so that no matter how much effort you've put into understanding the gameplay up until that point, and how much attention you've been paying, it's not obvious what you're supposed to do. You know what a great example of this is? The Tartarus fight at the end of Halo 2. It's an absolutely terrible battle, because not only is it extremely long and drawn out so that even once you figure out how to do it all you're doing is repeating exactly the same thing over and over until you avoid getting unlucky for a suitable length of time, but the way you win it uses a mechanic which literally doesn't appear anywhere else in the entire series. Literally every other enemy you meet can be damaged by shooting them - but in this fight, you have to wait for Johnson to fire his Beam Rifle before you can do it. Worse, the game doesn't even hint at this mechanic beforehand, and then doesn't actually provide any explanation or visual hints in the fight itself. Everything you've learned up to this point has nothing to do with how to win the fight - and no, this is not good gameplay.

 

Trial-and-error is fine when you're first figuring out how a mechanic works. It is not acceptable as an excuse for poor design.

[Caboose The Ace]

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I never claimed to be a good examplar..... wait is that even a job?

 

Hey there, I'm Caboose and I'm a professional exemplar!

Anyway, back on topic....

 

I cant really argue with that Red, that makes a lot of sense, you earned yourself a like for sure.

I will be honest though first person boss fights ( without quick time stuff ) hardly ever seem to work anywhere as well as third person boss fights.

 

 

 

 

[The Director]

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I never claimed to be a good examplar..... wait is that even a job?

 

Hey there, I'm Caboose and I'm a professional exemplar!

Anyway, back on topic....

 

I cant really argue with that Red, that makes a lot of sense, you earned yourself a like for sure.

I will be honest though first person boss fights ( without quick time stuff ) hardly ever seem to work anywhere as well as third person boss fights.

I agree, but the reason for it should be pretty obvious. A first person shooter is generally focused on one gameplay mechanic (shooting) and as such 'boss' fights tend to feel a bit lackluster. Literally the best a FPS can do without introducing gameplay concepts (like quick-time events) during boss fights is to make the boss be able to take and give a lot of damage.

 

It's also why 'boss fights' are kind of rare in the FPS genre. When they do happen, they usually happen at the end of a game rather than throughout the game. A good chunk of the 'worst boss fights of all time' come from the FPS genre for these reasons.

[Azaxx]

Gonna chip in for FPS bosses. Although it may seem bias, Destiny succeeded in making fantastic Raid bosses. Each of the bosses had hints throughout the game which lead up to the battle which were required knowledge on how to beat them. Eg, Atheon, the whole situation with the timegates and Oracles were explained previously in that Raid and same with the Relic, while the only unexplained parts were the Supplicant mobs.

On the most part FPS's can never get a boss fight done simply to how FPS combat works, but sometimes an anomaly to that occurs.

[rrhuntington]

This makes me wonder how 343 will Handle the Warden Eternal. He can't be too weak because no matter what there will always be four people up against him at once. He may operate similar to Warzone Bosses but I doubt it.

Difficulty moving forward I hope Halo 5 is somewhere in between Halo 2 and Halo 4.

[Axilus Prime]

Your example is terrible, Caboose. In a good boss fight, the game should provide the player with clear information about how it's going to operate mechanically, a chance to practice that kind of gameplay, and a thorough understanding of exactly how to win it - and all of this before the fight starts. The only reasons you should fail a boss fight, beyond player error, are either because you haven't made an effort to to understand the game's mechanics, or because you haven't been paying attention to the clues about how to beat the boss given in the build-up to the fight.

 

A good boss fight is a 'final exam' of sorts - a test to see whether you've gotten the hang of the gameplay up until that point. By all means it should be hard, and it should most certainly punish any errors made by the player. One of the absolute best examples is the Mr. Freeze fight in Arkham City, because you have to use every single trick and gadget you've learned up to that point in the fight - you can't just rely on one or two of your abilities. If you've taken the time to learn how to use those abilities, and understand the stealth mechanics, then it's an extremely difficult but very fun fight, and one which, barring a mistake on your own part, is something which can be beaten on the first try. It also includes plenty of audio and visual cues which not only give a sense of progress, but help indicate what to do next.

 

A bad boss fight is one which doesn't give you any hints in the build-up as to how to beat it, involves just repeating exactly the same actions over and over again over such a long period that it's basically just a test of how long it takes to make a mistake, or which introduces completely new mechanics, so that no matter how much effort you've put into understanding the gameplay up until that point, and how much attention you've been paying, it's not obvious what you're supposed to do. You know what a great example of this is? The Tartarus fight at the end of Halo 2. It's an absolutely terrible battle, because not only is it extremely long and drawn out so that even once you figure out how to do it all you're doing is repeating exactly the same thing over and over until you avoid getting unlucky for a suitable length of time, but the way you win it uses a mechanic which literally doesn't appear anywhere else in the entire series. Literally every other enemy you meet can be damaged by shooting them - but in this fight, you have to wait for Johnson to fire his Beam Rifle before you can do it. Worse, the game doesn't even hint at this mechanic beforehand, and then doesn't actually provide any explanation or visual hints in the fight itself. Everything you've learned up to this point has nothing to do with how to win the fight - and no, this is not good gameplay.

 

Trial-and-error is fine when you're first figuring out how a mechanic works. It is not acceptable as an excuse for poor design.

Well, to be fair, in the fight with Tartarus, Johnson will outright tell you how to beat him. "His shield is down--let him have it!" And Tartarus does provide you with an audio cue to confirm that shooting him after Johnson downs his shield is the way to beat him. He says "A lucky hit. You'll not land another!" That makes the Tartarus battle fairly straightforward, and quite easily survivable on your first try if you play it right. In fact, I did survive it on my first try.

 

A bad boss fight by your definition would probably be the fight with the Heretic Leader. Against Tartarus you received the aforementioned tips. Against Regret, Cortana tells you to get in close and see what you can do, and if you follow this, the game will outright tell you: press X to board, press B to melee. His screams confirm that it's working. But against the Heretic Leader, you are by no means informed that his holo-drones are infinite, or of the method to keep track of the real one. You aren't even informed that you need a sword, camo, and the method to keep track of the real one in order to beat the boss without dying. Now, I have on multiple occasions beaten this boss without dying but the fact remains that on my first try, such a feat was outright impossible. That boss fight was a horrible experience the first time around.

[Caboose The Ace]

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Really?

 

One my first try I instantly knew who was the real one and just started shooting him with my carbine and he quickly died, I found it quite easy.

 

I suppose its different for everyone.

[Axilus Prime]

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Really?

 

One my first try I instantly knew who was the real one and just started shooting him with my carbine and he quickly died, I found it quite easy.

 

I suppose its different for everyone.

My first run of H2 was solo Legendary, and as such, that's what I was referring to when I made that statement.

[RedStarRocket91]

Well, to be fair, in the fight with Tartarus, Johnson will outright tell you how to beat him. "His shield is down--let him have it!" And Tartarus does provide you with an audio cue to confirm that shooting him after Johnson downs his shield is the way to beat him. He says "A lucky hit. You'll not land another!" That makes the Tartarus battle fairly straightforward, and quite easily survivable on your first try if you play it right. In fact, I did survive it on my first try.

 

...what? That is not 'outright telling you how to beat it', that would be something like 'You can do literally nothing to hurt him until I take his shields down, so wait for my beam rifle shot' or whatever. Just yelling that Tartarus' shield is down is completely unhelpful, because; Johnson talks a lot in combat anyway, so there's nothing to distinguish this as a specific trigger rather than just generic combat reaction dialogue; he takes so long to say it and Tartarus' shields go down for such a short period that unless you're actively looking at Tartarus at that exact moment, and choose that point to damage him, it's going to seem even more like generic dialogue; and at no point does he make clear that it's his beam rifle shooting that's dropping the shields rather than your own attacks.

 

And even if it did, it would still be a crap boss fight. It's entirely possible to have a beam rifle of your own during this fight, and no matter how many times you hit Tartarus, you can't drop his shield, so you have to wait for Johnson. There's no in-game reason for this other than 'because boss', and it's a mechanic which is introduced without any warning or explanation, which flies against the core gameplay you've been practising up until that point, and which doesn't show up even once anywhere else in the entire series. The fact that Johnson will occasionally yell that Tartarus' shields are down is at best inadequate, and at worst downright misleading, as his failure to state why those shields are down is quite capable of leading the player to believe that they're capable of damaging Tartarus if they can just apply enough firepower.

 

The only halfway-decent boss fight in Halo 2 is the battle with the Prophet of Regret, because at least there are some nice visual cues in there: you can clearly see that your weapons fire isn't hurting him, and he actually reacts to being boarded and punched. It also uses an existing mechanic in a new and interesting way, which is how a good boss is done: however, even then it loses marks because until you actually rush up and attempt to board him, there's nothing in particular to indicate that you need to do so, as all you'll know up until that point is that your projectile weapons aren't working. You also can't just hit him with conventional melees, for reasons which aren't explained, so marks off for that, too.

[Axilus Prime]

...what? That is not 'outright telling you how to beat it', that would be something like 'You can do literally nothing to hurt him until I take his shields down, so wait for my beam rifle shot' or whatever. Just yelling that Tartarus' shield is down is completely unhelpful, because; Johnson talks a lot in combat anyway, so there's nothing to distinguish this as a specific trigger rather than just generic combat reaction dialogue; he takes so long to say it and Tartarus' shields go down for such a short period that unless you're actively looking at Tartarus at that exact moment, and choose that point to damage him, it's going to seem even more like generic dialogue; and at no point does he make clear that it's his beam rifle shooting that's dropping the shields rather than your own attacks.

 

And even if it did, it would still be a crap boss fight. It's entirely possible to have a beam rifle of your own during this fight, and no matter how many times you hit Tartarus, you can't drop his shield, so you have to wait for Johnson. There's no in-game reason for this other than 'because boss', and it's a mechanic which is introduced without any warning or explanation, which flies against the core gameplay you've been practising up until that point, and which doesn't show up even once anywhere else in the entire series. The fact that Johnson will occasionally yell that Tartarus' shields are down is at best inadequate, and at worst downright misleading, as his failure to state why those shields are down is quite capable of leading the player to believe that they're capable of damaging Tartarus if they can just apply enough firepower.

 

The only halfway-decent boss fight in Halo 2 is the battle with the Prophet of Regret, because at least there are some nice visual cues in there: you can clearly see that your weapons fire isn't hurting him, and he actually reacts to being boarded and punched. It also uses an existing mechanic in a new and interesting way, which is how a good boss is done: however, even then it loses marks because until you actually rush up and attempt to board him, there's nothing in particular to indicate that you need to do so, as all you'll know up until that point is that your projectile weapons aren't working. You also can't just hit him with conventional melees, for reasons which aren't explained, so marks off for that, too.

Johnson's random dialogue is repeated quite often. That's bossfight-specific dialogue, only indistinguishable if you weren't paying attention for most of the game. It also kinda makes sense to keep your eyes on the enemy, so you can see that very clearly if you're playing properly.

 

Actually, you can drop his shield with a beam rifle of your own. I've done it. So it's quite consistent that his shield can only be dropped by a beam rifle. Also the fact that his shield will drop after only 3 direct hits of Beam Rifle (could be more if the player's doing it, but it's still a beam rifle) when infinite amounts of anything else does nothing makes it clear that the Beam Rifle is the only thing that brings them down. I understood the mechanic in the fight against Tartarus within two minutes and won on my first try without dying, when my first try was solo Legendary. So from experience, the fight with Tartarus is entirely fair, if a bit drawn-out.

 

The fight with the Prophet of Regret I'm inclined to say is a bit unfair because it's very much luck-based. But actually, Cortana tells you that your weapons are doing absolutely nothing and that you need to get in close as soon as you shoot him a few times. Conventional melees not working shouldn't have to be explained. Seemed pretty obvious to me that the only way to hit him was from inside his throne's shield where you don't impact the shield at all, which meleeing him conventionally most certainly is not. It's certainly the most clear bossfight with regard to what you should do, but the execution part is luck-based to a ridiculous degree. If an Elite just happens to spawn in a certain place, you will most likely die. And the death is for certain if he's a dual wielder, though the Anniversary version fixes that part.

[Caboose The Ace]

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All three of the boss fights in Halo 3 are still bad, and relatively boring for that matter.

 

That's kinda why they have not been seen in the series since.

[Axilus Prime]

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All three of the boss fights in Halo 3 are still bad, and relatively boring for that matter.

 

That's kinda why they have not been seen in the series since.

Halo 2*

 

They were a nice touch but could have been better. Definitely not "bad" or "boring."

[Composite Armour]

Well, to be fair, in the fight with Tartarus, Johnson will outright tell you how to beat him. "His shield is down--let him have it!" And Tartarus does provide you with an audio cue to confirm that shooting him after Johnson downs his shield is the way to beat him. He says "A lucky hit. You'll not land another!" That makes the Tartarus battle fairly straightforward, and quite easily survivable on your first try if you play it right. In fact, I did survive it on my first try.

 

A bad boss fight by your definition would probably be the fight with the Heretic Leader. Against Tartarus you received the aforementioned tips. Against Regret, Cortana tells you to get in close and see what you can do, and if you follow this, the game will outright tell you: press X to board, press B to melee. His screams confirm that it's working. But against the Heretic Leader, you are by no means informed that his holo-drones are infinite, or of the method to keep track of the real one. You aren't even informed that you need a sword, camo, and the method to keep track of the real one in order to beat the boss without dying. Now, I have on multiple occasions beaten this boss without dying but the fact remains that on my first try, such a feat was outright impossible. That boss fight was a horrible experience the first time around.

Eh? All you needed was a fuel rod and just derp him in the face with it at the start of the fight. Almost instant win.

[Caboose The Ace]

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They were boring, or either brutally straightforward or really hard to grasp first time over.
 
Example of boring: Heretic leader
Example of straightforward: Regret ( I am all you had to do was run over to him and beat him up a few times )
Example of hardness to grasp: Tartarus

 

I think the game would have been better off without them especially the heretic leader, considering how much we now know about him from the H2 terminals, why in the first place did he attack Thel?

 

I mean he could have just called Spark over to tell Thel the Halo's were made to kill people.

[Fishy]

You guys do realize you don't have to board Regret to kill him, right? I have no clue why you keep saying that's the only way. You can shoot him down. Fuel Rod and Rocket Launcher will almost instantly kill him. Depending on difficulty. However, boarding him is the easy/fun way. It's also the only reason why 343 included the filler Prophet Skull. To make it more fun, and for an achievement. However, if you do not board him and just shoot him down. You will not get the achievement.

 

So overall, he can be shot down. I mean, why couldn't he? They shot down a prophet in Halo: Legends with a sniper shot. Why wouldn't Regret have been able too?