Things wrong with previous forge versions that should not make it to halo 5

[OmegaDoom]

Title says it all. Express your opinions as to what was bad about older forge versions. This is all in the opinion of the poster and there is no need to argue about anything. Just post your shortcomings with forge here.

 

-the budget

 

Putting restrictions on someones creativity is never a good thing. Can you imagine the possibilities if the budget in halo 4 forge was multiplied by 10? People could make masterpiece maps, race tracks, zombie maps and so on. Imagine minecraft but in halo. Now i know this restriction is put in place due to hardware limitations of the 360, but on the xbone the hardware can handle more. And maybe instead of having a difinitive limit, perhaps a notice appearing once you have placed so many items stating that performance may degrade if you continue. Limiting forge with a budget just seems wrong

 

-removal of older game types

 

Juggernaut, race and zombies are just a few that i can think of. Rather than removing game modes for others or editing them into something different, give the player the choice. Removing game modes just puts a damper on custom game fun with friends. Also it seems like editable options in the game modes has dwindled.

 

-Confusing options on some items

 

When i place a hill marker its obvious i intend to play king of the hill on the map and the settings for the hill item should default to that. But instead i have to tweak and mess with advanced options to make the map even playable with the king of the hill game type

 

-accidental deletion

 

Accidently hitting Y on an object that you didnt intend to delete is a real problem. I know you can lock items so the dont delete, but giving the olayer the option of being prompted or not before the items delete would easily fix this small issue.

 

-vehicle limits

 

Ever wanted to race 16 warthogs around? Yeah well you cant.

 

-finicky controls

 

Using a controller to move and edit a map is clunky and inaccurate. Now i know that 343 has the Edit Coordinates option, but wouldnt keyboard and mouse support in forge be real nice?

[Caboose The Ace]

Clearly there is some stuff you don't understand.....
Let me clear this up.
 
The budget will still be in Halo 5 Forge no doubt, it will just be higher than Halo Reach/Halo 4 due to the Xb1's better hardware.

"removal of older game types" With some tinkering you can pretty much edit a gametype to what gametype is missing but I agree, something like recreating infection is impossible and so infection should be in H5.
 
People used to do it in Halo 2 though that required honour rules.....

accidental deletion- I suppose I agree but overall the lock system fixes that ( and the item glows ) so its not hard to know what item you are deleting.

vehicle limits- There will always be limits, though perhaps in Halo 5 16 warthogs is possible....

finicky controls- They are not going to go that far and put keyboard and mouse support, if you love making maps that much get a pc there are plenty of really good and much better map makers for free or that come with other games.

[Twinreaper]

Not quite sure what the real point of this thread is. Discussing older Forge problems does nothing and has no relivance to Halo 5, as all major production and content is now finalized. The following 1.5 months will be bug squashing, update prep and finalizing the RTM Discs.

 

After what, almost 9, years now you would figure that most people understand why a budget is in place, or at the very least watched enough dev documentaries to undedstand Elementary level mechanics. No limitng creativity is never a good thng, bt the length people go to describe how much real creativity and "map making" Forge users is laughable.

 

Yeah I'm a snob with that sort of thing. Placing pre-made items on a pre-made map level is hardly what I would call map making. I create things from scratch and bring them to life and have been doing so since CE. Maybe it's just experience that allows me to better understand why things are limited or just the way they are.

 

My solution to your prkblem is simple, learn how the mechanics and engine really work and why, then try asking some legitimate questions or opinikns that are not based off lack of undedstanding or simple rantings of a player who wants x,y and z with no realizatikn or expectatikns of what needs fo happen to allow it. End Rant TL;DR

[Fishy]

-the budget

 

Putting restrictions on someones creativity is never a good thing. Can you imagine the possibilities if the budget in halo 4 forge was multiplied by 10? People could make masterpiece maps, race tracks, zombie maps and so on. Imagine minecraft but in halo. Now i know this restriction is put in place due to hardware limitations of the 360, but on the xbone the hardware can handle more. And maybe instead of having a difinitive limit, perhaps a notice appearing once you have placed so many items stating that performance may degrade if you continue. Limiting forge with a budget just seems wrong

Actually, you're more concerned about Halo 4's forge than looking at anything else.  Halo 2's forge was succeeded. This is 2 years after Halo 4, now. If you actually look at it. You can see that they removed budget and placed in an object limit. 650, I believe.

 

Also, do not compare Minecraft to Halo. They run on completely different engines, Minecraft is also like 200x smaller than Halo 4. (Yes, exaggeration but it sure seems like it.)

 

Forge budgets are also a good thing. Seeing as how the more objects on the map, the more wait time added plays into effect. I don't want my waiting times to be 10 minutes just to see a map that I'll probably play less than that on. Plus generating lighting? Yeah no thanks, that's way too damn long for me.

 

 

-removal of older game types

 

Juggernaut, race and zombies are just a few that i can think of. Rather than removing game modes for others or editing them into something different, give the player the choice. Removing game modes just puts a damper on custom game fun with friends. Also it seems like editable options in the game modes has dwindled.

 

No thanks. I like my zombies as much as the next guy. Which, btw, is actually called infection. Just gonna tell you that, because I didn't think you knew what it was called.

 

Juggernaut is an old time classic favorite that gets played a lot, and can be used for a lot of fun. That's if it's used right. Takes more planning to make a Juggernaut fun map, but it's possible.

 

Race stays because it's a Multi-team favorite. AKA, Rocket Race. Name one time on Reach when you played Multi-Team and you saw Rocket Race, that everyone picked Elite Slayer over it? I don't remember that ever happening.

 

 

 

-Confusing options on some items

 

When i place a hill marker its obvious i intend to play king of the hill on the map and the settings for the hill item should default to that. But instead i have to tweak and mess with advanced options to make the map even playable with the king of the hill game type

Uh, no. Because a hill item can be used for Infection safe havens, Territories, Ricochet Goals, and pretty much every objective out there. It's not limited to just King of the Hill.

 

I don't like switching game types as much as the next guy, but what I will say, everyone can probably agree with me on this, is to implement what Halo 3 forge had; and that's to switch game types without having to quit game and relaunch it with the game type you want.

 

 

 

-accidental deletion

 

Accidently hitting Y on an object that you didnt intend to delete is a real problem. I know you can lock items so the dont delete, but giving the olayer the option of being prompted or not before the items delete would easily fix this small issue.

No, it might be a pain in the butt when it happens, but I still say no. That's because every now and then people have screw ups on their map and it doesn't go as planned. So they need to fast delete.

 

I speak for myself on this, but I lock my items right after I place them. So having to go back and press the unlock and delete button at the same time is already too much of a pain for me.

 

 

 

-vehicle limits

 

Ever wanted to race 16 warthogs around? Yeah well you cant.

Uh, just use the race game type if you want to race with 16 warthogs. It's really not that hard, it's in the options menu before you start the game. Just select the vehicle to be a Warthog, or Banshee, or Mongoose. There will be 16 for racing.

 

Placing 16 on a map is just kinda stupid. What's the point? 3 people can fit in a Warthog, and with 16 players that's 5 warthogs, and somebody left to be by themselves. Totaling in 6 Warthogs needed. 

 

Or you can just set all vehicles on map to Warthogs, and they'll spawn as Warthogs. Giving you have every vehicle down, you'll have more than 16.

 

 

 

-finicky controls

 

Using a controller to move and edit a map is clunky and inaccurate. Now i know that 343 has the Edit Coordinates option, but wouldnt keyboard and mouse support in forge be real nice?

Keyboard and mouse support? Lol, no.

 

Seeing as how on PC you can use any controller you want. It wouldn't make a difference. Edit Coordinates is what you're going to have to deal with, and magnets as well.

 

I just don't see why they would give Keyboard and Mouse support. It'd make the game look like trash. Like, seriously it'd go something like this:

 

"Hey guys, I know you like forge and all but you need a keyboard for the full experience. So go unhook it from your PC or go spend money on one; and you'll be all set. Oh, and by the way. The keyboard is only able to make you place objects faster."

 

Yeah so, I'm against this idea as well.

[Sikslik7]

Forge has always been, and hopefully always will be a work in progress that gets better with each game. Based on what we have seen from the Halo 5 beta and Halo 2A forge in MCC, I expect forge in Halo 5 to be much better than it's predecessors. I expect this not because of just a new iteration, but as many of the issues forge has faced in the past are not present in Halo 5. However, although forge should be better, I have a feeling that the forge community will be even worse off, despite the progress. Here are some things that has been/always will be problems with forge that many people don't realize. I'll break these into some different categories to help explain the issues.

 

Console Power: Held back by split-screen, Frame-rate Drops, and Spawning.

 

Splitscreen:

Modders have proven over and over again that consoles can handle increased item count, despite Bungie and 343i claiming the console can't handle more. The truth is, they are right, the game cannot function properly with high item count as long as there is split-screen. Split-screen is the main reason for the item count. When playing split-screen, the console has to do 2-4 times the amount of work than a console with only one player. This is because the console has to keep track and generate the map for each player, what they see, and how objects interact with each other. Well-known maps that make it into matchmaking have to be edited and fixed to make sure it can be handled by split-screen, especially when you have bad connection and multiple consoles with split-screen actively being used in a match. The community made Invasion maps by THFE in Reach that made it into matchmaking are a testament to this. THFE did an amazing job with those maps, fixing plenty of issues, and cutting back on parts of the map to make it playable. As someone who saw the initial finished products (before they were to be made for matchmaking), I can attest to the changes made and see the amount of work they had to make to the maps and innovation they used to bring maps in that would have never been able to be played in matchmaking. Removing split-screen helps the console process the game better for players, and allows for more usage of forge mode to the optimums.

 

Frame-rate Drops:

Item clipping (also known as Screenlag) has been an issue since Reach, and is part of an ongoing battle against frame-rate. This is caused by items that have different properties than normal (glass, lighting, metallic shine, etc). It is also caused by having two items on top of each other, which flash back and forth between the items being seen. Forgers spend a lot of time having to shift blocks and redo entire areas because of these object interactions, which are both distracting to players and create more work for the console. Being a more powerful console, The Xbox One has the ability to overcome the drops much easier. From the forge maps we saw in the Halo 5 Beta, the items seem to have a much more simplistic texture and design. This is good news for the community, as the console will be working less to generate the same structures. For an example of some issues that carry over:

 

 

Spawning:

In Halo Reach, Invasion was one of the most intensive gamemodes ever made for Halo, and Halo 4 had dominion, another intensive gamemode for the Xbox 360. This was due to items being spawned in, changing properties, and plenty of invisible and visible zones, objects, etc. In addition, the spawning formula for the games were unique in these gamemodes, being dictated by player choice, spawn zones, and the current possessions of a team. Halo 2A forge has shown that the Xbox One can handle this, with the switches, timers, and special objects that were introduced in Halo 2A forge. Based on how spawning weapons in Halo 5 Beta worked, spawning looks fairly optimistic. 

 

 

Forge Mode: Controls, item labeling, Items, and features.

 

Forge Controls:

Forge has relatively retained the same controls since it was first implemented in Halo 3. Additions have been made, such as being able to duplicate and lock items, but some features were removed and brought back (precision editing). Overall, this has gotten better with time, but there is still one beef I have with the controls: spinning an object 45 (or 30) degrees twice. Any forger knows exactly what I am talking about, when you spin and object once along the x or y axis, and then along the z axis (or vice versa). For example, you can't have a block 1x3 be both a diagonal bridge between catty-corner blocks and at a 45 degree angle with the floor. Instead of doing as you would expect, the game spins the block in an all new angle, not relative to only one of the x,y, or z axis respectively. It would be nice to have an "undo button" whether it be movement, or deletion.

 

Item Labeling:

This has been an issue since it's advent in Halo Reach, allowing objects to be used in only certain gametypes, under certain conditions, and to be a specific object (KOTH hill, Headhunter score zone, etc). To use these objects you have to learn how to label, and what to label, which is hard to do with complicated gametypes such as invasion or Dominion. With Halo 2A, they broke down the objectives into easier to use items. Although you still have to label them KOTH Hill, flag spawn, etc., the naming of the objects was mainly so you could identify the objects in-case you had multiple at the same spot (like and Infection safe zone and a KOTH hill). Item labeling has gotten much simpler, but the labeling still offer increased customization from the gametype's options.

 

Items:

You have to have a decent variety of items, of various sizes and shapes, with a mixture of natural terrain and buildings. Item textures need to work well together and with the environment around it, and cannot be overly bland or complicated. There needs to be some more complicated or user-feedback items, such as destructible cover, etc. Overall, many items which can be used in many ways. Some items have been almost worthless in most maps, but shine in others. Give forgers a large palette to chose from, and they can use the items as they see fit. Mistakes have been made with items in the past (rounded corners with Halo 4 being one). 

 

Forge Features:

This is the most diverse category of Forge. There have been great additions, such as magnets, spinning by a certain angle, phasing, etc. Others have been cosmetic, sure as changing colors of objects. Many of these have helped people get into forge and make forging faster (remember trying to put bridges together in Reach?). Trait zones and gravity volumes are another one of these features, which can be edited and used some the gametype does not have to be special for the map. Killzones and safe zones have helped created good boundaries for players, even when some forgers don't know how to use them properly. The thing is, these features have been used in many cases as a substitute for something that already works well (precision editing/magnets). Typically for every feature added, another disappears, or is hardly usable anymore. It is like getting a prosthetic leg and then losing your other foot, are you really better off?

 

 

The Game: Gametypes, Customs, and The Community.

 

Gametypes:

Whoa, we already talked about gametypes! No, we talked about objective objects. Here is the important thing: gametypes are part of the core of forge innovation. Don't believe me? Let's look at some examples: In Halo 4, there was no sided CTF. It had to be forged in to make one flag (the attackers) inaccessible, but close enough so that the attackers knew where to score it. THFE created an Invasion-like gametype called Conversion in Halo 4, which had to be forged into the map. Many of the action-sack and custom maps in Halo Reach and Halo 4 were from gametypes such as stockpile and Headhunter. Many were modded gametypes, like gun-game, mini-slayer, etc. Allowing older gametypes to make an appearance, even if not played in matchmaking, allows for forgers to make maps that can be used in customs.

 

Customs:

Customs has been a core part of Halo since the beginning. Having your friends or random people get together in a lobby and play mini-games, competitive maps, and all sorts of other creations is one of the most enjoyable parts of Halo. Forging is a huge part of customs, and if the forge community is not strong, or can't get their maps tested in customs lobbies, customs is reduced to replaying the same simple mini-games and base maps on a game. 

 

The Community:

From launch, the community needs to be able to support forge. If a working fileshare is up within two months, especially in conjunction it being up on Halowaypoint.com, maps will be able to be spread across the community, and allows players to see a cool map online in a video, click a link, and ready it for download on their xboxes the next time they get online. Additionally, the community, the members of the Halo universe, need to play Halo and help forgers test their maps and keep the game alive. If the online population dies off in a few months, there is no incentive to make maps, as no one will ever play them. Sadly, with the removal of split-screen, this hurts the community. It also hurts forgers who just want to test out if a gametype works by turning on a second controller. Now they have to find a friend or a random person online to help them test.

 

 

So yeah, there are many issues with Forge that have been/ always will be there. If you want to talk about what I have said, please feel free to discuss, as I am more than open to a dialogue about forge or my thoughts. 

 

 

 

[BaconShelf]

You know what's worse than 'restricting creativity?', allowing people to brick their console because they placed 700 fusion coils in one place. I'm sure everyone would accept that as their fault when they crash their game or break their console instead of blaming the developers and demanding refunds!

 

/sarcasm

 

Not quite sure what the real point of this thread is. Discussing older Forge problems does nothing and has no relivance to Halo 5, as all major production and content is now finalized. The following 1.5 months will be bug squashing, update prep and finalizing the RTM Discs.

 

After what, almost 9, years now you would figure that most people understand why a budget is in place, or at the very least watched enough dev documentaries to undedstand Elementary level mechanics. No limitng creativity is never a good thng, bt the length people go to describe how much real creativity and "map making" Forge users is laughable.

 

Yeah I'm a snob with that sort of thing. Placing pre-made items on a pre-made map level is hardly what I would call map making. I create things from scratch and bring them to life and have been doing so since CE. Maybe it's just experience that allows me to better understand why things are limited or just the way they are.

 

My solution to your prkblem is simple, learn how the mechanics and engine really work and why, then try asking some legitimate questions or opinikns that are not based off lack of undedstanding or simple rantings of a player who wants x,y and z with no realizatikn or expectatikns of what needs fo happen to allow it. End Rant TL;DR

 

Nah. Forge is, like, map making lite. Far Cry is here it starts to get fairly in-depth before any full map editing kits like those in HCE or Bethesda's modding kits.