No Bloom

[Three Bad Boys]

I have a very simple quesiton for 343i. Why is there still bloom in any playlist at all? I thought we finally convinced the masses that this was by far the worst decision Bungie ever made. I am exremely grateful that zero bloom gametypes are available for us in the TU playlist, MLG playlist, and custom games. But I would like to play in other playlists, such as Double Team and Rumble Pit, without having to play on the ridiculous default Reach settings. Is there really anyone with a beating heart who prefers the dumbed down, unpredictable, skill-inhibiting, and pace decreasing nature of bloom gametypes? If you are out there, please let me know. I would love an explanation.

 

And yes, I realize 343i is happily working on Halo 4 right now, and I have no idea how complex of an implementation this would be. If there are really those out there who prefer to play with bloom (which for the life of me I cannot comprehend), then could there at least be a Double Team and Rumble Pit zero bloom playlist? 2v2 is probably my favorite playlist, but it's flat out unplayable in its current state. Not only is the bloom unbearable, but one starting grenade and slower power weapon respawns with only one clip...really? Whose idea was that? That makes it INCREDIBLY boring.

 

This would be awesome! Thanks for hearing me out!

[Mr Biggles]

most of them aren't default anymore, most of them are now TU/ZB, which is really good. i like the ZB quite a lot, but ive got to respect the other people who like the TU as well and normal settings, so this is why they probably won't spread it past MLG And ZB Slayer unless there is a HUGE outcry.

[Lᴜᴋᴇ]

Bloom isn't that bad. I don't notice it, and I don't care. I'm not going to quit the game if they introduce it or if they don't.

[BirdieJuice]

strangely i actually prefer the 85% bloom to ZB. i've never been a fan of trigger spamming

[RedStarRocket91]

I prefer 85% bloom over 0% bloom, actually. With the latter, non-precision weapon still seem to be affected, which makes precision weapons disgustingly overpowered. I admit it works very well for Arena-style games though, where everyone starts with a DMR and the only pickups are weapons that aren't affected by bloom. But for regular gametypes, because the precision weapons have such powerful scopes these days and those that don't can fire at incredibly high speeds, it actually feels more broken than vanilla gameplay.

[Three Bad Boys]

You raise a good point about zero bloom DMR being overpowered relative to other starting weapons. However, I am refering solely to games in which everyone spawns with a DMR, which obviously provides for the most skill oriented gameplay. With basic power weapons such as rockets, sniper, and shotgun, you can definitely defeat someone with a DMR.

 

My point is just that, of all the Halo iterations, bloom DMR lends itself to the most unskillful and random gameplay, relatively speaking of course. With zero bloom, the more skillful and aware player wins 99.9% of the time, versus 50-60% with bloom, even 85% bloom. But I also don't see how someone can defeat the logical argument:

 

1) Zero bloom obviously takes the most skill

2) CERTAIN playlists exists to determine the most skillful players

3) Therefore, skill based playlists should implement zero bloom

 

Simply put, any random variable at all completely renders the outcome of a battle meaningless. The more variables in play, the less certain we are who is the better player. So why should we play with the king of all random variables?

 

I realize more casual players that aren't quite as good at the game prefer slower paced and more laid back gameplay, which is why I am pushing for only one or two more zero bloom playlists. That way, we can experience zero bloom in the major gametypes: 4v4, 2v2, and Rumble Pit.

 

To BirdieJuice, it has nothing to do with "trigger spamming". It's about winning a battle because you can aim better, not because you got lucky with bloom spreading your bullets randomly.

[Twinreaper]

Boy.....Three Bad Boys sure do equal one idiotic post. You quite obviously have no working knowledge of the bloom mechanic as you call it. You really should have done search on the site for other bloom threads before trying to pass off your completely idiotic view on bloom or even calling it logical. There is nothing logical or even remotely data specific to backup anything you said. Just the simple.fact that you called it bloom and not "error angle" is proof of that. To make.my post shorter than it needs to be ....go search around for the other threads and find my relevant data in which i have posted about the subject.

[Three Bad Boys]

Yep, I am just so dumb. Playing a gametype where the battle outcomes are not completely dependent on aiming ability is clearly superior. Oh wait...

 

Next time, reply with something that actually refutes my argument. Don't treat me like an idiot, because I am not one. I don't care what you call it. "Bloom", "error angle", "randomness"...it doesn't matter. It still boils down to some factor that is out of my control, which is the opposite of what competitive players should be advocating.

 

And what data? Just open your eyes when you play the game, and it's right in front of your face. I don't need data to prove what I can already see. When I shoot someone in the face with a bloomed weapon, it may or may not kill them. When I shoot someone in the face with a zero bloomed weapon, they die. It's that simple.

 

Do you actually believe, from the bottom of your heart, that a bloom weapon takes more skill than no bloom? When I play someone 1v1 with bloom, the outcomes are completely meaningless. Nobody actually knows who is the better player. With no bloom, there is no doubt about it. I don't know about you, but that's what I like to play.

[RedStarRocket91]

You raise a good point about zero bloom DMR being overpowered relative to other starting weapons. However, I am refering solely to games in which everyone spawns with a DMR, which obviously provides for the most skill oriented gameplay. With basic power weapons such as rockets, sniper, and shotgun, you can definitely defeat someone with a DMR.

 

Arena-style games definitely could benefit from this, but the problem is in regular games it just becomes far too powerful - the BR at least had bullet spread between its rounds and a weaker scope, so you couldn't easily four-shot someone from half a map away. With DMR starts spawn-trapping would become way too easy, as even a disorganised team could do it. Even in regular DMR Slayer, no bloom would hurt map movement more than it would help the skill barrier, as nobody would risk leaving cover when they could be killed very easily and quickly from what is normally Sniper Rifle distance.

 

Simply put, any random variable at all completely renders the outcome of a battle meaningless. The more variables in play, the less certain we are who is the better player. So why should we play with the king of all random variables?

 

Not necessarily, that works on the idea that the ability to pace shots is less of a skill than the ability to aim. 85% bloom seems to work pretty perfectly at punishing spammers but rewarding pacers, and leads to better map movement as well as preserving power weapon strength. Also, the idea of aim assist kind of renders battles meaningless too, as we can't be sure it's personal skill rather than mechanical assistance which is responsible for keeping your crosshair on target. This is why I regard Team Snipers as the only playlist which truly tests a player's skill: there's so little assistance that if you're a bad aim, you won't kill in two shots. Or three. Or even four. You just won't kill anything - period.

 

I realize more casual players that aren't quite as good at the game prefer slower paced and more laid back gameplay, which is why I am pushing for only one or two more zero bloom playlists. That way, we can experience zero bloom in the major gametypes: 4v4, 2v2, and Rumble Pit.

 

I'm not sure casual players do enjoy bloom, or slower pace. I actually quite like it because it leaves more room for tactical play rather than just going for headshots right from the spawn every time.

 

I completely agree that there should be more options for those who do want to play with zero bloom, though. There should definitely be a chance to play Objective games without it, at the very least - right now they can't be done even in Custom Games, which is really unfair. Not sure about a 2v2 playlist, as that seems like it would appeal to way too few players to ensure fair and fun matches, but a Lone Wolves playlist without it would be nice.

 

I actually agree with a lot of what you say, I just don't know that there's a big enough population to set up new playlists for - it just seems like you'd end up with really unbalanced matches.

[TankKill]

Forgot to search other forums didn't ya BadBoys?

[Azaxx]

Its funny because the masses don't agree with you, and Bungie aren't idiots, because they have had bloom in EVERY Halo game, it just hasn't been obvious because the reticule doesn't expand in the earlier titles.

So before you start hating, get your information right, cause you are wrong.

And in fact the 100% bloom takes more skill, with the bloom you need to pace your shots and aim carefully and not spam like the 0% bloom,

So you sir, are so totally wrong.

[Twinreaper]

Yep, I am just so dumb. Playing a gametype where the battle outcomes are not completely dependent on aiming ability is clearly superior. Oh wait...

 

Next time, reply with something that actually refutes my argument. Don't treat me like an idiot, because I am not one. I don't care what you call it. "Bloom", "error angle", "randomness"...it doesn't matter. It still boils down to some factor that is out of my control, which is the opposite of what competitive players should be advocating.

 

And what data? Just open your eyes when you play the game, and it's right in front of your face. I don't need data to prove what I can already see. When I shoot someone in the face with a bloomed weapon, it may or may not kill them. When I shoot someone in the face with a zero bloomed weapon, they die. It's that simple.

 

Do you actually believe, from the bottom of your heart, that a bloom weapon takes more skill than no bloom? When I play someone 1v1 with bloom, the outcomes are completely meaningless. Nobody actually knows who is the better player. With no bloom, there is no doubt about it. I don't know about you, but that's what I like to play.

 

Still such a dumb ass. Just because you can see a car move or because you drive on, doesn't mean you know how it owrks. Get it *******?

 

There are no factors beyond your control when playing with 100% "error Angles" in effect. The layout functions of the [weap] tag allow players to pace their shots in a way that control where their shots may land. I have yet to ever have a problem landing shots nor have I ever had what could be caled a lucky shot. Lag is another factor you failed to mention on this. Lag is not only highly visible in Reach, but in every Halo game. CoD has a much better netcode system as every match I have watched my son play, there is no vosoble lag.

 

What data? Just because you had someones face in your sights, doesn't mean that both consoles or host, agrees that the enemy player was in your sights. again, it's netcode....and you can't see netcode, you have to decompress and decrypt engine data to get to it....again, you know jack ****.

 

Playlists on 100% error settings will always require more skill than weapons with no error at all. How is conscidered skill, when the weapon has no deviation from it's aiming path, and fires quickly with the same damage modifier? So next your gonna tell me that in halo 2 and 3, it would take more skill to use the BR on ZB than at it's default settings? Get real kid, you obviously have a lot to learn about the Halo engine, it's settings, and how to differentiate what you see on screen versus the engine code and explinations for what you see. Just because you see it, doesn't make it true or right.

[Mr Biggles]

Still such a dumb ass. Just because you can see a car move or because you drive on, doesn't mean you know how it owrks. Get it *******?

 

There are no factors beyond your control when playing with 100% "error Angles" in effect. The layout functions of the [weap] tag allow players to pace their shots in a way that control where their shots may land. I have yet to ever have a problem landing shots nor have I ever had what could be caled a lucky shot. Lag is another factor you failed to mention on this. Lag is not only highly visible in Reach, but in every Halo game. CoD has a much better netcode system as every match I have watched my son play, there is no vosoble lag.

 

What data? Just because you had someones face in your sights, doesn't mean that both consoles or host, agrees that the enemy player was in your sights. again, it's netcode....and you can't see netcode, you have to decompress and decrypt engine data to get to it....again, you know jack ****.

 

Playlists on 100% error settings will always require more skill than weapons with no error at all. How is conscidered skill, when the weapon has no deviation from it's aiming path, and fires quickly with the same damage modifier? So next your gonna tell me that in halo 2 and 3, it would take more skill to use the BR on ZB than at it's default settings? Get real kid, you obviously have a lot to learn about the Halo engine, it's settings, and how to differentiate what you see on screen versus the engine code and explinations for what you see. Just because you see it, doesn't make it true or right.

 

 

And that my friends, is why Twin is a boss.

[Three Bad Boys]

Alright, well no matter what you say, you cannot deny that bloom leads to slower gameplay. There is no refuting that claim in any way, shape, or form. With zero bloom, you can react faster and allow the gameplay to keep up with your thought process.

 

Oh yeah, and I guess MLG, the most competitive Halo communitity, is just a bunch of fools then. Right...

[CandiBunni]

Alright, well no matter what you say, you cannot deny that bloom leads to slower gameplay. There is no refuting that claim in any way, shape, or form. With zero bloom, you can react faster and allow the gameplay to keep up with your thought process.

 

Oh yeah, and I guess MLG, the most competitive Halo communitity, is just a bunch of fools then. Right...

 

Slower paced gameplay =/= A bad thing. Just because a game may have slower paced gameplay does not mean its gameplay isn't good or great.

[Three Bad Boys]

Its funny because the masses don't agree with you, and Bungie aren't idiots, because they have had bloom in EVERY Halo game, it just hasn't been obvious because the reticule doesn't expand in the earlier titles.

So before you start hating, get your information right, cause you are wrong.

And in fact the 100% bloom takes more skill, with the bloom you need to pace your shots and aim carefully and not spam like the 0% bloom,

So you sir, are so totally wrong.

 

Again, so I guess MLG is just a bunch of idiots, right? Have you watched a zero bloom game versus a bloom game of the best players in the world? Their individual skill shines through infinitely more.

 

And in past Halos, the shots weren't precise, but if you shot someone in the head when they were one shot, THEY DIED! That is definitely not the case with a bloom gun. All waiting waiting for a bloom to reset does is inhibit people who can think faster from taking advantage of that talent, while in the meantime someone can span with a bloom shot and get LUCKY over a guy who patiently waits. That is NOT what a game should be about, ever.

 

That's what I want! That's what the best players in the world want. I don't know what possible argument there is against that. So in fact, sir, I am not totally wrong.

[Baby Boo]

I'm on BadBoys side here. I agree, the bloom is stupid. I love the needle rifle, but hey, that ****'s impossible to aim with the damn bloom. Take out a guy's shiels, and the retical has expanded so much it takes you 2, 3, or sometimes even 4 times to hit your mark of the opponents head. So again, I agree, that bloom is basically luck of the draw, and doesn't show which player is supieror, just shows which player is lucky. I say get rid of bloom. Or at least, take it out of spacific playlists such as Invasion, Slayer, Rumble Pit, Squad Slayer, BTB, etc.

[DSB Clazer]

I agree with badboys. If i can aim quick enough to get three quick headshots i dont want the game getting in my way. Why should i be punished just because noobs cant aim as quickly as me? Even if i can aim or pace with bloom settings, close quarters pacing still gets you killed by a spammer (usually), so how is this fun unless you lack the skills needed to compete with zb?

 

Bloom Is not fun for skilled players because it makes them slow down their abilities to accomodate their weaker opponents. Skill gaps are clearly visible with zb settings, which is why pros like it and newbs hate it (i think the newb hate is clearly evident in this thread). Yes if you pace the shots land accurately, but wheres the reward for players who can aim / think faster? There should be more playlists available that reward skill and in my opinion anyone who defends bloom is ignorant and/or bad at halo and therefore prefer gametypes that pander to their skewed/noobish perspective

[RedStarRocket91]

There should be more playlists available that reward skill and in my opinion anyone who defends bloom is ignorant

 

Someone having a different opinion isn't ignorance. Not knowing something is ignorance.

 

I actually generally agree that no bloom makes for a more competitive game, just not Reach. Reach without bloom just makes all the precision weapons far too overpowered, and turns the Pistol into the BFG. Especially now that melee bleedthrough has been removed, non-precision and non-power weapons are literally worthless in ZB games, and the DMR's huge scope distance just makes that all the worse.

[Luckyschmuck38]

Still such a dumb ass. Just because you can see a car move or because you drive on, doesn't mean you know how it owrks. Get it *******?

 

There are no factors beyond your control when playing with 100% "error Angles" in effect. The layout functions of the [weap] tag allow players to pace their shots in a way that control where their shots may land. I have yet to ever have a problem landing shots nor have I ever had what could be caled a lucky shot. Lag is another factor you failed to mention on this. Lag is not only highly visible in Reach, but in every Halo game. CoD has a much better netcode system as every match I have watched my son play, there is no vosoble lag.

 

What data? Just because you had someones face in your sights, doesn't mean that both consoles or host, agrees that the enemy player was in your sights. again, it's netcode....and you can't see netcode, you have to decompress and decrypt engine data to get to it....again, you know jack ****.

 

Playlists on 100% error settings will always require more skill than weapons with no error at all. How is conscidered skill, when the weapon has no deviation from it's aiming path, and fires quickly with the same damage modifier? So next your gonna tell me that in halo 2 and 3, it would take more skill to use the BR on ZB than at it's default settings? Get real kid, you obviously have a lot to learn about the Halo engine, it's settings, and how to differentiate what you see on screen versus the engine code and explinations for what you see. Just because you see it, doesn't make it true or right.

 

It's cute how you think you are a master of this when all you have posted is irrelevant to the question Bad Boys put forward. His argument is that bloom decreases the opportunity of a more skilled player to best a lesser skilled player because instead of reaction time, strafing, aiming, etc. The playing field is lowered because of the "error angles" that bloom incorporates. The lesser the bloom the greater chance that the player with the best aim and reaction times wins out.... JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER HALO. A slight bit of randomness was added in 2 and 3 because it was a burst fire instead of a single fire, but that aside that could be accounted for by leading your opponent, etc. Bloom as a mechanic takes that randomness to a whole new level that cannot be helped other than standing around waiting for it to go away. As far as your lag argument that has been a part of online gaming since the beginning and does not pertain to what the OP is advocating. Take your flaming elsewhere and be constructive.

[Luckyschmuck38]

Slower paced gameplay =/= A bad thing. Just because a game may have slower paced gameplay does not mean its gameplay isn't good or great.

 

For Causal yes, Completive no. Actually in the competitive scene that has been the trend. Halo 2 to Halo, no BxR or BxB and the gameplay got slower and the scene was smaller. A more extreme example is Gears of War 1 to Gears of War 2, game play slowed way down. And guess what happened? Gears 2 didn't even have a large scale competitive scene

[Baby Boo]

I'm still under the influence that bloom=luck, no bloom=superior skill. I'm not sure what is so hard to understand.

[Twinreaper]

Not one single one of you have any idea of how "error angles" work. IT IS NOT CALLED BLOOM!!! It is called "error angles" and they are clearly defined in the weapon tag. Error angles ahve been in every Halo game since 1. Reach was the first to make use an expanding reticule to show players on the HUD, where their shots were limited to in terms of error.

 

Now on to the important one, anytime you have adverse effects or any other mechanic that inhibits your aim, response time or even pace.....the player has to be skilled in order to cope or overcome these challenges. "Zero Bloom" gametypes mimic no other Halo game at all. There is not one weapon in the entire eries that ahd anything close to a setting of "0" for the error angles. That is a fact.

 

Removing bloom makes it so that simply the first person to shoot will win. No deviation in firing...like the BR or magnum. Just a simple shot hitting the same exact spot everytime with no decreased firing speed or ejection recovery time. As I said, saying ZB takes more skill with DMR's and the magnum...is equivilant to saying that no error with a BR would take more skill than opposed to it's default settings.

 

As for you MLG losers...your all mostly basement dwellers with no real world experience or usable skills so you hopelessly flock to MLG hoping that something you do in life will impress someone. Look mom, I can use my thumbs!!! Being in MLG is not cool, a usable talent nor does it have any real world benefits. Even if you did manage to get signed...big deal. You get maybe 2 years worth of my current salary...and when it ends, your back at your moms house eating hotpockets for the next 50 years. Next time your uyp for that huge General/Project manager job...be sure to tell them how you went 30-0 ina slayer match or some ****...I'm sure that will land you the promotion. Do me a favor, keep your lame ass MLG talk out of it...that was not the point. The point was, how full bloom take more skill than 0 bloom.

[Azaxx]

Again, so I guess MLG is just a bunch of idiots, right? Have you watched a zero bloom game versus a bloom game of the best players in the world? Their individual skill shines through infinitely more.

 

And in past Halos, the shots weren't precise, but if you shot someone in the head when they were one shot, THEY DIED! That is definitely not the case with a bloom gun. All waiting waiting for a bloom to reset does is inhibit people who can think faster from taking advantage of that talent, while in the meantime someone can span with a bloom shot and get LUCKY over a guy who patiently waits. That is NOT what a game should be about, ever.

 

That's what I want! That's what the best players in the world want. I don't know what possible argument there is against that. So in fact, sir, I am not totally wrong.

 

have you talked to every best player in the world, answer: No

so that proves your arguement totally wrong, plus you dont get it, bloom has been in every game, not just reach, so MLG have being playing with bloom for years

[Three Bad Boys]

have you talked to every best player in the world, answer: No

so that proves your arguement totally wrong, plus you dont get it, bloom has been in every game, not just reach, so MLG have being playing with bloom for years

 

On the contrary, I have communicated with or listened to many of the top pro players in one way or another, and they all prefer zero bloom to bloom. So nice try. And I do get it, because I have been playing Halo since CE, and I know that when I shot someone in the head who was injured in a past Halo, they died. This is not the case in default Reach, and I don't know what more you can say to that.