No Bloom

[Three Bad Boys]

For the last time, arguing against bloom is pointless. Everyones perspective of what takes skill vs what you think takes skill is always going to be radically different...there is no real right or wrong way to determine skill. Skill is just that, and it comes in a wide variety of flavors and instances.

 

Also, please keep in mind that reach IS the VERY FIRST TIME we ever had an absolute "0" bloom denominator in effect. That being said, you cannot simply dismiss "bloom" lovers, since they were also people who played Halo 2 and Halo 3, and may have been awesome with the BR. All in all, you all have your own view and I cannot stand seeing you guys argue about it anymore. NOONE IS RIGHT OR WRONG HERE....IT'S ALL PERSPECTIVE AND INDIVIDUAL INSTANCES!!!

 

Bad Boy, you say bloom is less skilled because with ZB, you know for sure where your shots are going, and stray bullets means no room for aiming or firing error. Thats fine. For your playstyle and battle instances this is true to your perspective. As with the others, bloom adding an extra calculation to which your bullet may go, and you can judge, that is fine also. Your both right for your own style and lets just leave it at that. case closed.....hopefully?

 

Good post. There is one thing I have to add though. We may disagree about what takes more skill for an individual DMR battle, but we haven't really addressed the effects these individual battles have on overall gameplay. There is no denying that zero bloom leads to faster kills, which means faster gameplay, more multikills, quicker thinking, and more of an opportunity for one player to take over the game. One of my biggest qualms with bloom is that is slows the game down so much. Multikills are pretty much nonexistent, and individual battles take so long that, while you may have a plan in your head for how to take out the entire other team, you have no opportunity because the first of those kills takes too long to complete, such that the opportunity is long lost. It essentially delays the inevitable. This was something that was greatly missed in previous Halos.

 

From a viewers perspective, I don't see how anyone could possibly enjoy watching bloom gameplay more at the competitive level. Just look at the recent MLG event in Columbus. Those matches reached a level of intensity that far exceeded anything that happened all last season. And the majority of this was due to zero bloom being implemented along with no sprint. It is simply way more exciting to watch (and, in my opinion, to play).

[italus]

Everyone has difference perspectives on zb compared to bloom as well for game play.

[Twinreaper]

Well for the perspective of faster gameplay, that relies on everyone having a DMR or fast percission weapon, or the ability to take out the target quickly depending on the weapon you weild. Not everyone likes to play with a DMR all the time. I almost never pickup a DMR and usually opt for a needler or a plasma repeater. Now, I havent played any MLG playlists so I cannot speak from that end of the spectrum. But also the DMR is NOT the only weapon out there. There are many weapons to choose from and all of them have an equal ground to play with via pros and cons. That is the only thing that bugs me about bloom and everyones perspective on it. So many times the game over, people complain about it, yet never just go around and use a different weapon. Why such a love for the DMR/Needle Rifle/Sniper? Where is the love for the non-percission weapons? That is the real issue here. By MLG standards it seems......the percission weapons are the only ones that should be in Halo since it's the only ones that are ever complained about. Please correct me if I have my intel wrong here, but thats the way it seems after going through tons of MLG posts from random players around the web. Where's my ZB Plasma Repeater?!? I can no haz?

[DerpWithAGun]

Skill = Being able to adapt to the situation, no matter what the circumstances are and be able to win and survive. Whether there is a banshee shooting bombs at you, your match is ZB, your match is TU or your match is Vanilla reach.

[Three Bad Boys]

Well for the perspective of faster gameplay, that relies on everyone having a DMR or fast percission weapon, or the ability to take out the target quickly depending on the weapon you weild. Not everyone likes to play with a DMR all the time. I almost never pickup a DMR and usually opt for a needler or a plasma repeater. Now, I havent played any MLG playlists so I cannot speak from that end of the spectrum. But also the DMR is NOT the only weapon out there. There are many weapons to choose from and all of them have an equal ground to play with via pros and cons. That is the only thing that bugs me about bloom and everyones perspective on it. So many times the game over, people complain about it, yet never just go around and use a different weapon. Why such a love for the DMR/Needle Rifle/Sniper? Where is the love for the non-percission weapons? That is the real issue here. By MLG standards it seems......the percission weapons are the only ones that should be in Halo since it's the only ones that are ever complained about. Please correct me if I have my intel wrong here, but thats the way it seems after going through tons of MLG posts from random players around the web. Where's my ZB Plasma Repeater?!? I can no haz?

 

Okay, I can tell from this post that you are ovbiously a casual player. I don't care. More casual players means more attention for the Halo series. And I totally understand why casual players prefer bloom and using other weapons such as the needler as you pointed out, since these virtually eliminate the skill gap. This in turn prevents them from getting dominated like in zero bloom. That's fine. I encourage you to have fun! But I'm speaking from the perspective of the skilled Halo players who enjoy a more competitive style gameplay. These nuances of bloom vs no bloom go over the heads of 95% of the Halo community. They would never notice a difference. And for that matter, I would argue that they only support bloom because Bungie implemented it. Had it come with zero bloom, they would fully support that instead. They really can't think for themselves. I'm not referring to you, since you are obviously more knowledgeable. But for average or casual players, they merely just support whatever the game developer deploys, which means there really is no merit to their argument. On the other hand, for players on the far right of the bell curve in terms of general Halo skill, there is no doubt that zero bloom takes more skill.

 

So it really just gets down to whether 343i caters to casual vs competitive players. I know Call of Duty is successful because it's more casual, but it's 10x less skillful than vanilla Reach, and 100x less skillful that zero bloom Reach. I'm a finance student, so I understand the business perspective, of course. Hopefully they can satisfy both parties with Halo 4. Anytime they start throwing around the word "random" and take a socialist perspective of "evening the playing field" with random weapon drops (their own words), the competitive community cringes.

 

Skill = Being able to adapt to the situation, no matter what the circumstances are and be able to win and survive. Whether there is a banshee shooting bombs at you, your match is ZB, your match is TU or your match is Vanilla reach.

 

Is this a joke? So if I play two 1v1 games, the first one being zero bloom, precision weapons only, on a small map like Asylum or Zealot, and I win this game 15-0. Then we play on Coagulation with warthogs and hammers and I happen to lose, then we are evenly matched since I went 1-1? Dude, just no...

[Constantly]

Still such a dumb ass. Just because you can see a car move or because you drive on, doesn't mean you know how it owrks. Get it *******?

 

LOL and I should be nicer to members?

 

I completely agree with the OP on this one. I'm probably never going to understand why people defend the bloom.

[fzdw11]

 

Is this a joke? So if I play two 1v1 games, the first one being zero bloom, precision weapons only, on a small map like Asylum or Zealot, and I win this game 15-0. Then we play on Coagulation with warthogs and hammers and I happen to lose, then we are evenly matched since I went 1-1? Dude, just no...

 

But to limit yourself to one weapon and one style of play doesn't make you good. It makes you good at one aspect of the game, not the whole game. I'm not knocking the way you play, don't get me wrong. You have every right to play the game how you want to play the game, and that is everybody's right.

 

But answer me this, if you don't mind. There is no bloom in H4 as far as we are aware. There is recoil on the BR. How do you feel about that?

[Three Bad Boys]

But to limit yourself to one weapon and one style of play doesn't make you good. It makes you good at one aspect of the game, not the whole game. I'm not knocking the way you play, don't get me wrong. You have every right to play the game how you want to play the game, and that is everybody's right.

 

But answer me this, if you don't mind. There is no bloom in H4 as far as we are aware. There is recoil on the BR. How do you feel about that?

 

To me, we are talking about two different aspects of the game. There is the social aspect, which includes playing with more casual settings using a variety of weapon starts and game settings. This could mean playing on huge 8v8 maps, using assualt rifles, or playing with vehicles. That's fun and all, but it has no place in the competetive scene of Halo. There is virtually unanimous consensus among the top players as to what constitutes skill. Aside from map layout and team chemistry, there are certain weapons that do and do not belong IN COMPETITIVE PLAYLISTS. Those that do include:

 

DMR (ZB) - hard to use and requires practice to perfect

Sniper - even more extreme of the above

Rockets - while it does take some limited skill, it's more related to map control

Shotgun (maybe) - somewhat related to map control, but this is more controversial, as it leads to camping

Needle rifle - similar to the DMR

Plasma pistol - can be used in combination with DMR to create combo situations. I am a little more hesitant toward this one, but I can see the merit of the arguments.

Pistol (if not overpowered) - I think everyone agrees that pistol is way too powerful under zero bloom. It was more competitive under bloom, but this is far overshadowed by the improvement in the skill of DMR under ZB.

 

Guns that SHOULD NOT be included, ever:

 

Assault rifle - no skill whatsoever --> "spray and pray"

Plasma rifle - same as above

Needler - not as bad as the above two, but still not skillful. There really isn't much of a "right" way to use it

Hammer - this should be pretty obvious

 

There are, of course, more weapons in the sandbox, but this discusses the major ones. Sword is somewhat controversial for the same reasons as shotgun. It was used in Halo 2, and I think Halo 3 as well (for MLG).

 

So again, games that include the second list can still be really fun, especially for casual players, but they in no way prove skill. The correlation between skill and winning is MUCH lower when playing casual playlists vs competitive playlists.

 

As for your question about recoil, if it is predictable and can be controlled, then I am all for it. Anything is fair game that can be perfected after much practice and still requires skill to use. The problem with bloom is that, no matter how much you practice, you are still never completely sure if you will get screwed over.

 

My entire argument basically boils down to whether a player is rewarded for putting in the practice to perfect how to use a weapon. Bloom does not reward such practice fully. I agree it can somewhat, but honestly, bloom is pretty fricking random. And yes, I know that weapons in past Halos had bloom-like mechanics, but nowhere near vanilla Reach DMR. If I shot someone in the head who was one-shot in Halo CE, 2, or 3, they died. No questions asked. I miss that dearly.

[fzdw11]

Thanks for the response, Three. How do you feel about the apparent custom loadouts, then? Choices between BR/DMR/AR, etc? Obviously for competetive play, the choices will probably be between DMR/BR, so what are your thoughts on this?

[Three Bad Boys]

Thanks for the response, Three. How do you feel about the apparent custom loadouts, then? Choices between BR/DMR/AR, etc? Obviously for competetive play, the choices will probably be between DMR/BR, so what are your thoughts on this?

 

I'm not sure how I feel about this to be honest. I think if the weapons are balanced enough, then it could add a new layer of competition by allowing people on your team with different roles to utilize the optimal weapon for that role. For example, DMR could provide support from long range, whereas BR is for up close battles featuring strafing and juking.

 

Balance and reward for practice are the keys. They've discussed random weapon drops in pods, and that absolutely makes me cringe. Attempting to "even the playing field" by eliminating the advantage of knowing maps like the back of your hand seems like an incredibly stupid idea.

 

I'm also not sure how I feel about the unlocking of weapons/features to which they've alluded. That is starting to sound too much like CoD.

[fzdw11]

I'm not sure how I feel about this to be honest. I think if the weapons are balanced enough, then it could add a new layer of competition by allowing people on your team with different roles to utilize the optimal weapon for that role. For example, DMR could provide support from long range, whereas BR is for up close battles featuring strafing and juking.

 

Balance and reward for practice are the keys. They've discussed random weapon drops in pods, and that absolutely makes me cringe. Attempting to "even the playing field" by eliminating the advantage of knowing maps like the back of your hand seems like an incredibly stupid idea.

 

I'm also not sure how I feel about the unlocking of weapons/features to which they've alluded. That is starting to sound too much like CoD.

 

The random weapon drops does seem a tad.. odd, but they also stated that the weapons are going to be placed at the beginning of the match like always, just after that it will become random. Not sure if they are applying this to all weapons, or just power weapons though. In one of the sparkcasts they did say that it does have a pattern that can be learned over time, though, so we'll see.

 

The unlocking things does feel very much like CoD/BF. I haven't personally played CoD, but BF, it is a pain, but I understand why it is in there. Unlike the Halo universe, at least in BF3 they have a multitude of guns that perform the same function, and you unlock them as you progress in the different "classes". I'm not sure how much I like this idea for a Halo game, but again, I'll reserve judgement on it until I've seen it in action.

 

Anyway, thanks for the discussion! Should probably get this back on topic about bloom, huh?

 

To me, the whole ZB thing seems a bit overpowered. I may like it more if perhaps the DMR was nerfed a bit, but as it stands, the game wasn't designed for it to be played that way. I dunno. My personal preference, I guess.

[call me graham]

I like the no bloom.

[Shadow Hunter Honor]

im kinda indifferent on it.

[Three Bad Boys]

The random weapon drops does seem a tad.. odd, but they also stated that the weapons are going to be placed at the beginning of the match like always, just after that it will become random. Not sure if they are applying this to all weapons, or just power weapons though. In one of the sparkcasts they did say that it does have a pattern that can be learned over time, though, so we'll see.

 

The unlocking things does feel very much like CoD/BF. I haven't personally played CoD, but BF, it is a pain, but I understand why it is in there. Unlike the Halo universe, at least in BF3 they have a multitude of guns that perform the same function, and you unlock them as you progress in the different "classes". I'm not sure how much I like this idea for a Halo game, but again, I'll reserve judgement on it until I've seen it in action.

 

Anyway, thanks for the discussion! Should probably get this back on topic about bloom, huh?

 

To me, the whole ZB thing seems a bit overpowered. I may like it more if perhaps the DMR was nerfed a bit, but as it stands, the game wasn't designed for it to be played that way. I dunno. My personal preference, I guess.

 

I would argue that 5 shot kills times with the DMR closely parallel kill times with the 4 shot BR in Halo 2 and 3, and even slower than pistol in CE. Like I've said before, I hate that it's impossible to get multikills with bloom DMR, and how it is similarly too difficult for one player to dominate multiple players at once. Agreed though, good discussion.

 

Hit me up online, and we can run some playlists together.

[Azaxx]

Is this a joke? So if I play two 1v1 games, the first one being zero bloom, precision weapons only, on a small map like Asylum or Zealot, and I win this game 15-0. Then we play on Coagulation with warthogs and hammers and I happen to lose, then we are evenly matched since I went 1-1? Dude, just no...

 

Now are you joking, hogs is nothing like ZB or bloom, cause hammers dont use bloom, wtf u serious bro.....if u did a bloom then ZB match that would be better, but not that trash what u just said.

[Three Bad Boys]

Now are you joking, hogs is nothing like ZB or bloom, cause hammers dont use bloom, wtf u serious bro.....if u did a bloom then ZB match that would be better, but not that trash what u just said.

 

Okay fine, I will do a different example. I bet that a person who is significantly better than another player will win a bloom 1v1 15-6 ish, and will win the zero bloom 15-0 or 15-1 max. And I know this from personal experience. If you want, we can try out this theory...

[Azaxx]

 

 

Okay fine, I will do a different example. I bet that a person who is significantly better than another player will win a bloom 1v1 15-6 ish, and will win the zero bloom 15-0 or 15-1 max. And I know this from personal experience. If you want, we can try out this theory...

 

I would if i had time, but the scores could be completely different, like ZB 15-12 and bloom 15-13 even, u never know

[Three Bad Boys]

I would if i had time, but the scores could be completely different, like ZB 15-12 and bloom 15-13 even, u never know

 

If one player is quite a bit better than the other, that person will not get more than 2 or 3 kills in a zero bloom game. And I don't have time right now either. We can play later, maybe over the weekend.

[Azaxx]

 

 

If one player is quite a bit better than the other, that person will not get more than 2 or 3 kills in a zero bloom game. And I don't have time right now either. We can play later, maybe over the weekend.

 

Im away for 4 days, starting tomorrow, and plus i asure u i would get more than 3 kills, more like 8

[Three Bad Boys]

Im away for 4 days, starting tomorrow, and plus i asure u i would get more than 3 kills, more like 8

 

We can play then. And no.

[Azaxx]

 

 

We can play then. And no.

 

And yes,...though i am more skilled at bloom, i am also skilled at ZB

[Baby Boo]

I'm skilled at both. Bad boys, I've mostly supported you throughout this enitire arguement. But, now I think you are starting to overexagerate. I seen you claim that multikills with bloom are practically non existent... When, however, in a bloom match, I get at least one or two a game. I'm just saying, support your facts before you shout them.

[Constantly]

I'm skilled at both. Bad boys, I've mostly supported you throughout this enitire arguement. But, now I think you are starting to overexagerate. I seen you claim that multikills with bloom are practically non existent... When, however, in a bloom match, I get at least one or two a game. I'm just saying, support your facts before you shout them.

 

I'm thinking that he's talking about triple kills, overkill/exterms. In H3 it was just a swipe across the head of someone that was one-shot, then on to the next guy. It flat just takes longer to kill people in Reach because accuracy is nullified.

[Three Bad Boys]

I'm skilled at both. Bad boys, I've mostly supported you throughout this enitire arguement. But, now I think you are starting to overexagerate. I seen you claim that multikills with bloom are practically non existent... When, however, in a bloom match, I get at least one or two a game. I'm just saying, support your facts before you shout them.

 

Oh yeah, you can definitely still get double kills and maybe even triple kills with grenades and catching people who are one shot. But as the guy above me said, I'm talking about running around corners and 4 or 5 shotting people before they have a chance to sprint away. In previous Halos, you could start a string of kills with sick aiming, even on people who were not originally injured. There is no way you are going to get a triple kill with just a DMR and no grenades on vanilla Reach. Or if you can, it is extremely rare. Now people take forever to die and sprint away the second they get shot.

[Anarchy]

Oh yeah, you can definitely still get double kills and maybe even triple kills with grenades and catching people who are one shot. But as the guy above me said, I'm talking about running around corners and 4 or 5 shotting people before they have a chance to sprint away. In previous Halos, you could start a string of kills with sick aiming, even on people who were not originally injured. There is no way you are going to get a triple kill with just a DMR and no grenades on vanilla Reach. Or if you can, it is extremely rare. Now people take forever to die and sprint away the second they get shot.

 

I've seen lots of people do that on reach, next time i do i will make a video to prove it.