Bring back "Pinnacle" and "Uncaged" in Team Swat!!!!

[mikeyr]

While there are a good portion of people that are in agreement with you, you have to keep in mind what you just stated. "Without any sort of user opinion other than a few people complaining about these maps on the internet?" How many different people are in this thread, and of the whole population of SWAT, what does it make us? Less than 1% would be my guess.

 

I loved the maps, but I can understand them being gone. My issue isn't that they took them away, but that they took them away without replacing them. That's more problematic than just taking out two maps.

 

Also, welcome to the forums!

 

Thank you again fzdw11 for you comments. But your comments prove my point exactly. You stated :

 

How many different people are in this thread, and of the whole population of SWAT, what does it make us? Less than 1% would be my guess.

 

I would say less than 1%, probably way less actually. So the original idea to remove these maps was made by just a few people on this forum compared to the overall Swat player population. How is that fair to the average Swat player who enjoys these maps? Wait how do I know that? BECAUSE THEY WERE CHOSEN TIME AFTER TIME during the map voting selection process. This is the only thing that should matter! If people didn't like these maps, they wouldn't have chosen them during the map selection process. Like for instance all those odd games like Swat Potato or Capture the Flag or whatever it's called. How often are those chosen? Once in a blue moon from what I've seen.

 

Whether or not a few people on a small part of the internet like or do not like these maps should not matter. If these maps were not being chosen during the map selection process, then sure remove them. But they were! A few squeaky wheels on the internet should not affect the Swat gaming experience for the vast majority of players who enjoy those maps. And since these squeaky wheels DID get these maps removed, then our only option to get these maps back is too squeak louder and longer. So johnstevens point is valid in my opinion.

 

So these maps were removed and replaced with well um nothing. I'd love for 343 Industries to come out with some new maps, but I figure they have Halo 4 on the brain, so that's probably a no-go. The Swat experience has been crippled with a lack of maps. I for one want to hit myself over the head with a bat every time I see yet another game of Reflection or Asylum. Other users have very clearly said the same, well not hitting themselves over the head with bat, but you get my point.

 

Please 343 Industries consider putting those maps back into the playlist, or even some new maps!

[Ccup-mann]

Asylum is beast, for pinnacle was my most hated map, campers and spawn killers, I enjoyed uncaged very much though

[mikeyr]

And remember guest users please please sign up to voice your opinion on getting these maps back....that's the only way 343 Industries will know what the Swat community is thinking about the removal of these maps!

[Ccup-mann]

343 should replace them with user submitted maps, something new

[Goldenrevo]

Bring them back or replace with something else ..

 

Swat is boring now... 50% or more it's reflection...

 

Why the heck was there no vote like on the tu stuff??

[mikeyr]

343 should replace them with user submitted maps, something new

 

Thank you again Cupman for your feedback. I agree with you 100%, I'd love to see some cool new maps for Swat, whether they be from 343 Industries or user-generated maps. But I would think that 343 Industries has Halo 4 in their sights now and would want to spend minimal time on Halo:Reach, so creating new maps or testing maps from user submission would probably be a waste of valuable resources.

 

So why not just give us Pinnacle and Uncaged back into the playlist? This would probably be the easiest and simplest solution!

 

GIVE US OUR SWAT FUN BACK!!!!!!

[fzdw11]

Thank you again Cupman for your feedback. I agree with you 100%, I'd love to see some cool new maps for Swat, whether they be from 343 Industries or user-generated maps. But I would think that 343 Industries has Halo 4 in their sights now and would want to spend minimal time on Halo:Reach, so creating new maps or testing maps from user submission would probably be a waste of valuable resources.

 

So why not just give us Pinnacle and Uncaged back into the playlist? This would probably be the easiest and simplest solution!

 

GIVE US OUR SWAT FUN BACK!!!!!!

 

You've got it. Testing new maps and adding them in is probably gone at this point.

 

And, just for the record, this isn't a 343i official site, you are aware of this, correct? Just a community forum. Also, Spectral Jester posts the monthly updates whenever they are announced. Here's the thread for April: http://www.343industries.org/forum/topic/7169-halo-reach-april-playlist-update/

 

To get a better shot at 343 seeing this, you may want to head over to the HaloWaypoint forums and post something there as well, but by all means, keep this thread going. I wouldn't mind seeing Uncaged and Pinnacle make a return.

[Barra99]

I have to agree with many comments on this forum, Pinnacle and uncaged are no worse than several of the other SWAT maps, Pinnacle was usually one of my preferred choices and I prefer being blue team to red as well, never had a problem being spawn killed on the map. As for uncaged I only ever had a problem after the rest of my team quit which then resulted in me being repeatedly spwan killed (I refuse to quit from a game no matter what the odds).

So could 343 either bring them back or give us something new, like everyone else I am starting to tired of the same maps over and over - at least we used to have variety.

If only 343 used the update pop-up for something useful like informing gamers of their intentions for playlists rather than promoting which playlist has a slot machine jackpot.

[Ob3sity]

No 343 did it for a reason, pinnacle and uncaged were a spawn killing fest. No smartass listened to 'wingers' everyone has a right to express their opinion weather you agree to it or not, i will agree though, minus 2 maps is never a good thing, they should replace them

 

Sorry, I'll try that again. My frustration came from finishing a 2 rounds of reflection followed by 4 of Asylum.

 

Hi forum, I'm getting bored of the recent repetitivity of SWAT games being 1 of either SB, ASLM & RFTN (99%) of the time.

 

Is it assumption that the maps were removed due to spawn killing/camping complaints? Or is it fact?

 

No matter, the lack of diversity is really frustrating.

 

I always assumed everyone looked at pinnacle and uncaged as maps where you get the chance to develop and utilize your sniper skills.

 

Anyway, they were my favorite 2 maps no matter what color team and really hope developers will offer change of scenery in reach soon.

[The Director]

I'm rank above you (Noble), predominantly off of SWAT, and I simply don't have the problems you're claiming exist. There is not a camping point you've mentioned that I can't remove people from and I'm not particularly special in terms of gaming ability. I generally score first strike and one other kill regardless of which side I spawn on-- and that is not always from playing the immediate long-range shootout that is available at the beginning of Uncaged. The so-called starting advantages that you're talking about simply don't exist.

Calling me a liar does not make me one. Every single starting advantage listed DOES exist, and if players are good enough they can take advantage of them quite efficiently. I've done it, my friends have done it, and it's been done to us. So often in fact that quite a few of my friends actually quit playing SWAT because everyone and their mother ALWAYS voted those two maps, and they were utterly fed up with spawn camp games. I'd be in a party of four and we would be on the team with the advantage and try to vote for a different map out of pity, but people STILL voted for them. We occasionally got a couple guys who actually knew what they were doing who gave us a hard time of it, but for the most part we all went positive. Yeah, it's possible to get good enough on these maps to avoid the spawn traps of the disadvantaged teams, but you DO have to be better than your opponent for it. You also have to have teammates with pretty decent skill as well, otherwise you end up backpacking up Everest.

That aside, it doesn't really matter if it does. As stated, it is never difficult to get SWAT players to vote for Uncaged, and that is the only fan feedback that should be taken into account when deciding whether or not the map should be kept in the playlist. A few squeaky wheels on the internet should not be afforded the power to drastically alter the gameplay for the majority of gamers who have been quite happily playing on those maps day-in-and-day-out since the game's release.

I'm pretty sure they didn't take these maps out based on the forums. They have voting trackers, and they KNOW which maps are being played the most. They also aren't dumb enough to see 50 people complaining and 50000 people voting and choose the 50. I remember rumors going around back in the day that even Bungie was thinking of yoinking caged and pinnacle from SWAT. What they did instead was change the maps up a bit. That was based on their own opinions, not on the fans. If you want to argue that they are the best maps for SWAT ever due to people voting for them, then chew on this. Even on the original spawns for Pinnacle, people still voted for it more than most of the other maps. Same with Caged. You know why? Easy kills. A lot of people complained when they made Pinnacle slightly less lopsided, citing the exact same reasons that I showed in my previous post.

 

I actually prefer to spawn blue on this map, and again, generally grab First Strike and another couple of kills before being taken down. Again, I am not special in terms of gamer skill. The only time this map gets particularly brutal is when you have a team that doesn't work well together and allows the other team to grab both towers. In that case, it isn't unbalanced gameplay (which does not exist on this map) that is causing it to be brutal, it is the fact that one team is outplaying the other.

I'm guessing you usually play with friends, or against people that aren't that good with their aim. Either that, or someone on your team grabs host a lot and you are very lucky. When you go in as a random though, Pinnacle and Uncaged can be hell on Reach. And if you are lagging a bit? Forget about it. The unbalanced gameplay IS there, and if you are on one of the teams with an advantage, then however many kills the other team got would be more on balanced maps. You can argue about it all you want, but I actually LISTED the advantages and disadvantages, and how they could potentially be used. You pretty much gave me a longer version of "Nuh uh, that's not right". I even said that if you weren't playing as a good team that the advantages and disadvantages would become VERY apparent, but you completely disregarded that because your experience was different. Yeah, you can get a first strike while you are on blue team on Pinnacle or red team on Uncaged, but not if your opponents know the ways you can do it and decide to sit there and wait for your head to pop up.

 

The fact of the matter is that the balance of the maps isn't based on player skill, it's based on how the map is built, where the spawns are, where the firezones are, and on the assumption that the two teams are of equal skill to one another. If you put two different teams of exactly the same skill against each other on balanced maps, and remove the luck element, then the game will be a tie every time. If you do the same with Pinnacle and Uncaged, then there won't be a tie. That means that they are NOT balanced maps. Which means that they really shouldn't be in SWAT anyways.

 

Don't try to make this something it isn't. You are angry that 343i took out popular maps without having a vote on it. Don't try to say the maps are perfect for SWAT when they aren't. A perfect map for SWAT would be one that is perfectly symmetrical and has shifting but protected spawns to avoid spawn traps. It shouldn't be easy to gain map and spawn control. It shouldn't be about who can get to the best camping spot the quickest.

 

There are a few forge world maps that actually should make it into SWAT. Some of the MLG maps would be pretty intense and fun in SWAT, as well as some of the Slayer maps. I wish they would take the time to put some new maps in one of the largest playlists in the game.

 

Also, interesting little sidenote here, did you know that Asylum isn't actually symmetrical? It may look like it, but it really isn't. Go into forge and edit the coords of both bases and see for yourself.

[Geran85]

Calling me a liar does not make me one. Every single starting advantage listed DOES exist, and if players are good enough they can take advantage of them quite efficiently. I've done it, my friends have done it, and it's been done to us.

 

I'm sorry, did I hurt your feelings? Grow up. I never called you a liar. I told you that you were wrong, and I'm still telling you that you are wrong. Every one of your following statements-- 'I've done it, my friends have done it, and it's been done to us' etc.-- are statements that I can apply to my argument as well. Pinnacle and Uncaged are completely playable from either side of the map, end of story.

 

So often in fact that quite a few of my friends actually quit playing SWAT because everyone and their mother ALWAYS voted those two maps, and they were utterly fed up with spawn camp games.

 

I've marked the relevant portion of your text here. Thank you for helping make my point for me.

 

You also have to have teammates with pretty decent skill as well, otherwise you end up backpacking up Everest.

 

The game is Team Swat after all.

 

Easy kills.

 

And yet they left Sword Base, Asylum, Reflection and Countdown? There have been as many cumulative complaints concerning a certain yellow left room as there have for Pinnacle in it's entirety since the game's release, followed closely by Reflection's upper level and Countdown's corners.

 

I'm going to stop here. The rest of your post consists of you repeating yourself on points that I've already debunked, and you making broad assumptions about my gameplay experience and ability. I'm not particularly interested in participating in the personal battle that you're trying to create. In point of fact, from the moment you outright admitted that everyone votes for these maps, there wasn't anything else to discuss. The majority of the gaming audience should rule on topics like this, not some vocal minority that wants to throw a fit until they get their way.

[Geran85]

As for uncaged I only ever had a problem after the rest of my team quit which then resulted in me being repeatedly spwan killed (I refuse to quit from a game no matter what the odds).

 

Good man. I'm the same way. Feel free to friend me on XBL under this same username. I'm thinking those of us who have been burned by this extremely bad decision should get together for some custom gaming or something.

[The Director]

I'm sorry, did I hurt your feelings? Grow up. I never called you a liar. I told you that you were wrong, and I'm still telling you that you are wrong. Every one of your following statements-- 'I've done it, my friends have done it, and it's been done to us' etc.-- are statements that I can apply to my argument as well. Pinnacle and Uncaged are completely playable from either side of the map, end of story.

Except that I'm not wrong, and you are still not posting anything to prove me wrong except, again, "Nuh uh". We can do this all day. My points are valid, tested, and proven.

 

The game is Team Swat after all.

Yeah, and every playlist in Halo is Team somethingorother. Everything is a team game with the exception of rumble pit. However, if there were no randoms playing SWAT, who would you and your team go against? The same team 20 times in a row? Is that preferable to you? Not everyone has the luxury of having four people who are online and want to play Halo at the same exact time they do. Playlists that are specifically made for teams aren't usually very occupied (MLG, Arena). It's called Team SWAT because you are split up between Red and Blue, not because you need teamwork to win. Pinnacle and Uncaged are maps that if you don't play as a team, you lose. Hard.

 

And yet they left Sword Base, Asylum, Reflection and Countdown? There have been as many cumulative complaints concerning a certain yellow left room as there have for Pinnacle in it's entirety since the game's release, followed closely by Reflection's upper level and Countdown's corners.

While I don't like Asylum, Sword Base, or Reflection for Swat (or even Slayer for Reflection), Countdown is a perfectly symmetrical map. No team has an advantage over the other one. That means either team can camp in the corners if they so desire. That makes it an equalized map, which Uncaged and Pinnacle are not. Also, I'm reminded by a conversation I had with a couple of the more "pro" forgers on forge hub. They seemed to think that Bungie had actually made these maps for the purpose of FFA gameplay rather than with team games in mind.

In point of fact, from the moment you outright admitted that everyone votes for these maps, there wasn't anything else to discuss. The majority of the gaming audience should rule on topics like this, not some vocal minority that wants to throw a fit until they get their way.

The only reason these maps were voted for is because people want easy kills. Also, don't know if you've noticed this or not, but forge world maps were at the top of the list unless they were magnums. Which means only half the lobby had to vote for them to get them. Wasn't exactly a well kept secret which teams had the advantages and why, so if red team voted Pinnacle, and blue team voted none of the above or any other map for that matter, it would always be Pinnacle.

 

Also, you seemed to have disregarded my previous statement that these maps were likely deemed unfitting for SWAT not by the community, but by 343i based on their own results. 343i didn't say "We are gonna take em out cause we want to make the forum guys happy". Actually, they didn't say anything at all about it. Your whole argument about them listening to forum goers and ignoring the community at large is rendered moot by this point.

 

I'll leave you by saying this. This thread is pointless. 343i made the decision they thought was right, and if the TU is any indication, are not going to reverse their position. What I was trying to explain was why they may have come to this decision. The only reason I've posted more about it is because, frankly, I can't resist a good debate.

[mikeyr]

Good man. I'm the same way. Feel free to friend me on XBL under this same username. I'm thinking those of us who have been burned by this extremely bad decision should get together for some custom gaming or something.

 

That would be fine by me!!! Geran85 I think I added you already....anyone else, my gamer tag is mikeyr1968........feel free to add me and look me up!

[Geran85]

Except that I'm not wrong, and you are still not posting anything to prove me wrong except, again, "Nuh uh". We can do this all day. My points are valid, tested, and proven.

 

I'm not going to bite. You're still wrong, and this line of discussion is irrelevant. The only deciding factor should be what the majority of gamers who have bought the game want to play, not the preferences of a vocal minority.

 

Yeah, and every playlist in Halo is Team somethingorother. Everything is a team game with the exception of rumble pit. However, if there were no randoms playing SWAT, who would you and your team go against? The same team 20 times in a row? Is that preferable to you? Not everyone has the luxury of having four people who are online and want to play Halo at the same exact time they do. Playlists that are specifically made for teams aren't usually very occupied (MLG, Arena). It's called Team SWAT because you are split up between Red and Blue, not because you need teamwork to win. Pinnacle and Uncaged are maps that if you don't play as a team, you lose. Hard.

 

...and you should. Team based games are about working in concert with other players, whether you know them or not. You can't win on any map against a moderately competent team by playing one-man-army. Not that it matters, again, because nothing you've said here justifies the crippling of the SWAT playlist by removing maps that were preferred by the majority of gamers who play there.

 

While I don't like Asylum, Sword Base, or Reflection for Swat (or even Slayer for Reflection), Countdown is a perfectly symmetrical map. No team has an advantage over the other one.

 

Wrong. A competent team can win the initial shoot-out pretty handily and be the first to take the camping positions. The first team to take the camping positions, provided they are strong enough players to hold them, can win every time without the other team really having a shot at victory. You can't complain that a victory on Pinnacle hinges on the skill of your random partners, and then ignore that fact here. Also, again, this isn't relevant. The majority of gamers who indulge in this playlist frequently prefer Pinnacle and Uncaged over this map. In fact, it was often difficult (and still is) to get into a match on Countdown.

 

The only reason these maps were voted for is because people want easy kills. Also, don't know if you've noticed this or not, but forge world maps were at the top of the list unless they were magnums. Which means only half the lobby had to vote for them to get them. Wasn't exactly a well kept secret which teams had the advantages and why, so if red team voted Pinnacle, and blue team voted none of the above or any other map for that matter, it would always be Pinnacle.

 

You are making a series of incorrect assumptions here. It is unlikely that the average gamer who plays Halo has no idea that there was ever any kind of preferred position for forge world maps. Also, I very rarely, even before the removal of these highly preferred maps, ever saw a perfectly even split on voting. I've seen both maps preferred unanimously on several occasions.

 

Also, you seemed to have disregarded my previous statement that these maps were likely deemed unfitting for SWAT not by the community, but by 343i based on their own results. 343i didn't say "We are gonna take em out cause we want to make the forum guys happy". Actually, they didn't say anything at all about it. Your whole argument about them listening to forum goers and ignoring the community at large is rendered moot by this point.

 

Seeing is believing. Everything my stance requires to be true can be observed by anyone remotely familiar with the settings we're talking about. The argument you are presenting here literally requires one to abandon all reasoning and simply assume that, because 343 didn't make an official statement specifically confirming my points, they must be untrue while this line of thought, equally unsupported by any statement from 343 and without any visible facts from which one may draw their own conclusions, must for the same reason be true. That doesn't add up.

 

I'll leave you by saying this. This thread is pointless. 343i made the decision they thought was right, and if the TU is any indication, are not going to reverse their position. What I was trying to explain was why they may have come to this decision. The only reason I've posted more about it is because, frankly, I can't resist a good debate.

 

It is never pointless to argue for a position that one believes in, even if that position is as arguably trivial as the right-or-wrong of the handling of a multiplayer portion of a video game. I understand the points you were trying to make, but I disagree with them. That isn't me being angry, or calling you a liar. I don't have to personally attack you to consider your ideas wrong, and while I'm not very forgiving of those ideas when I speak against them, that in no way reflects any judgement I've made concerning you.

[Ccup-mann]

If you really want these maps back you should go to the waypoint forums and post this here, waypoint is the official site.

[mikeyr]

If you really want these maps back you should go to the waypoint forums and post this here, waypoint is the official site.

 

I've already done that!

[Ccup-mann]

 

 

I've already done that!

hopefully they take the communities feedback and bring the maps back!

[l Omnix l]

Bring back the removed maps! SWAT has no appeal for my anymore, most of the maps left in the rotation just arn't the best.

 

Add some varience! 343, you need to look around the community and add some good user-created maps that are SWAT specific!

[Pirate1690]

I agree 100% bring back Pinnacle & Uncaged!!! I'm sick of Reflection already!

[mikeyr]

I agree 100% bring back Pinnacle & Uncaged!!! I'm sick of Reflection already!

 

Thank you Pirat1690.........my thoughts exactly! I can only take so much Reflection, after about the 5th game of it in a row I feel like throwing my XBOX out the window!!!!!!!!!

 

Please 343 Industries give us those maps back or new ones to replace those maps. We are all eagerly awaiting the May update!

[EMPATH1C MIM1C]

I agree - Thank you 343 for removing two great maps and limiting the variety players have with their map choices. Not to mention removing two maps that actually promote DMR usage.

 

And everyone on here that commented on the atrociousness of spawn killing on Asylum - that BS is going to make me stop playing this game entirely. Every other map is Asylum, and it is nothing but sitting in the opposing teams spawn. Where is the talent in that? Where is the enjoyment when I can not take a step before I am being assasinated or dealing with two different enemies firing an entire clip four feet from me.

 

What 343 SHOULD have done was fix the spawn parameters on these maps. It is rediculous when I spawn next to an ally who is in a firefight with 3 members of the opposing team, or when I spawn 3 feet from an enemy. I do not recall those issues with Halo 2 or 3, especially on Swat maps. Shame on Bungie for being lazy with their multiplayer code and allowing this BS in the first place, but also shame on 343 for removing map options instead of fixing the real problem.

[mikeyr]

I agree - Thank you 343 for removing two great maps and limiting the variety players have with their map choices. Not to mention removing two maps that actually promote DMR usage.

 

And everyone on here that commented on the atrociousness of spawn killing on Asylum - that BS is going to make me stop playing this game entirely. Every other map is Asylum, and it is nothing but sitting in the opposing teams spawn. Where is the talent in that? Where is the enjoyment when I can not take a step before I am being assasinated or dealing with two different enemies firing an entire clip four feet from me.

 

What 343 SHOULD have done was fix the spawn parameters on these maps. It is rediculous when I spawn next to an ally who is in a firefight with 3 members of the opposing team, or when I spawn 3 feet from an enemy. I do not recall those issues with Halo 2 or 3, especially on Swat maps. Shame on Bungie for being lazy with their multiplayer code and allowing this BS in the first place, but also shame on 343 for removing map options instead of fixing the real problem.

 

My thoughts exactly......either those problems with the spawn points should have been fixed or some new maps added! We need more Swat choices, not less!

[okapi]

This type of decision is honestly making me consider cancelling my pre-order for Halo 4, if they make awful decisions like this as minor game tweaks then what kind of horrible choices will they inflict on us when they have their hands on the game pre-publishing?

[DoctorB77]

To much spawn camping. They should edit them and then bring them back.