Call to Arms!!! Community Awareness and Healing!!!!!

[Choot 'em]

Very eloquently put Twinreaper!! I agree 100% with the message you're getting across!! I am just as guilty as some in condemning others' opinions and even looking down on some of the "sub-genres" of the Halo community.

I have always tried to promote community spirit throughout the community, especially here at 343i.org. Along the way, I have made many friends, some with the same perspective and some with a different perspective about Halo. I don't want to see a divided community but rather a community with strength in numbers. 343industries has been handed the responsibility of moving the Halo franchise forward and what we have to do is put our trust in them to deliver the best possible trilogy that they are capable of.

Always remember this.....Halo is a video game that is designed for entertainment, not a dramatic life changing event that should define our attitudes towards other people. Enjoy what 343industries gives us, respect all sub-genres of the game, and most of all....respect each other. We are all here for Halo!!

I would like to personally thank you Twinreaper for taking the lead and providing us with this fine post! I hereby support Twinreaper and his post from this day forward concerning ALL sub-genres of Halo and look forward to fighting side by side with him and others to strengthen the Halo community and make it number 1 in supportiveness towards what the developers bring us in the future.

 

-Choot 'em

[Kurt S-501]

"They may take our homes, but they will never take, our FREEDOM!!!!"

 

On a more serious note, I agree completely. Great post, Twinreaper. You should be a motivational speaker!

[[email protected]]

pretty tight

[The Director]

I'm with you. But, it's not going to be done easily.

[a live dinosaur]

Amazing article, Twinreaper. Absolute Dog, I agree 100%. There are way to many people who has just became a member of this site, to purely speak what 343 Industries is doing wrong. 343i will do great with Halo 4. We are all fighting like one side is Halo, the other is COD. We are all a part of the Halo community, but we act as if we are apart, different chambers of Halo. We are one whole game, we should agree. We should stop using this forum as a tool to hate Halo, and not give 343 Industries a chance. I also can't believe the kind of disrespect this website gets. Bungie forums, Halo Waypoint forums, and everywhere else mocks us for being a fan made forum. Honestly, this forum is amazing. Bungie's forum was O.K., and Halo Waypoint's forum doesn't treat members as friends. They don't treat them badly, just treat them as strangers. Everyone knows everyone here, new or old. I just joined, March 26th, and I have made tons of friends. I have even made friends with moderators. We, if anything, should be the main forum. Not only is this place friendly, but it is also simple to use. I can't stand Halo Waypoints flashy texture. For gods sake, half of the Spartan icon is blocked off by recent news. I love 343 Industries, so why even criticize any Halo related forum? I realize that it is some of the fans on this forum that forces 343 Industries to ignore us. So please, if someone who has hated Halo 4 on this site, stop, or leave. It is like 'Liking' Justin Bieber's Facebook page just to make fun of him. Seriously? If you don't like Halo anymore, leave that to yourself. Nobody cares. You will not change any minds. If people stop hating, 343 Industries could take a fan forum seriously. Again, amazing, inspiring topic Mr. Twinreaper. This forum should be advertised, or on the front page to let new members know not complain about Halo 4. New members join every day, and I am sure one of them are going to post another hate speech about Halo 4. The point is to get 343 Industries to notice us, and respect this forum. Thank you Twam and everyone else responsible for creating this forum. You guys are legends. I will, forever be, Your Happy Dinosaur

[KyoKusagani1999]

Twin Speaks the truth about our community. These are also the reasons why I stopped playing online shortly after the release of Halo 3. With all of the simple-minded people out there, I've been sweared off countless times when I tried to have a decent match with someone from around the world. *Sigh* This is why we all have to do our part to ensure the future of halo is secured with the people that made it possible in the first place. We the gamers, scrubs, and grunts alike will ensure we continue voicing the truths about our community and the sportsmanship factors involved. When things look brighter for our beloved franchise, we'll jump onto the sunshine. We'll show people that we have respect for something that they take for granted.

[Guest hotdog8818]

Very interesting post.

[Guest GDF Apache]

I was able to grasp the key concepts in that read Twin. Thank you for bringing out the ravaging hunter that just wants to let lose and spread the world of Halo to every corner of this vast nation.

[DoctorB77]

I agree. But I think that these "noobs" brought us down along with the "overly competitive perfectionists". They seemed to argue a lot more with the interior community and made us drop.

[VivaLebowski]

I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian and say:

 

1) That to the extent that any real or percieved idiocy and bitchiness and all around stupid shenanigans are resulting from problems with regards to the direction Halo is taking, espiecally now that 343 is in control, I'll say that no amount of high minded "lets all come togethor and sing kumbaya" is going to solve that. Whats going to end it, one way or another, is when Halo 4 and subsequent titles actually come out and one way or another, these divisive issues will settle simply beacuse one side will have won out over another and there will be nothing more to fight about. Put simply, issues and schisms and declines in the quality of the community that are a result of the game itself are only going to be resolved by the game itself.

 

Its also worth pointing out that our collective opinions matter and that we should neither complain about everything 343 does or blindly have faith that they will produce an awesome game. Halo 4 is best served by us having these arguments and to the extent that the community is "divided" and "bickering" over these issues...well thats just unfortunate but neccasary collateral damage.

 

2) No doubt theres allot of stupid **** to be had that has nothing to do with Halo coming from newer members. On the same hand, Wouldn't be surprised, frankly, if old community members resent new Community members. Bottom line is, ****ty internet behavior is here to stay and I say we just do our best to ignore it, have a bit of fun and remind oursleves that none of this is really that important.

 

3) Its all well and good that we have a thread about "reforming" our behavior...but as nearly as I can tell this will be about as effective as few American's coming togethor and talking about "Ending Obesity!". Real change that involves a whole community of individuals comes organically...not at the flick of a switch resulting from a few members coming togethor and saying "yeah...thats right! We should do that!"

 

4 and Lastly...its my thesis that the thing which gives the Halo community its vitality is *surprise* Halo. In my mind, Halo 3 was the high point...some people will certainly and reasonobly think Halo 2 and even Halo CE were Halos finest hours respectively. But my point is, I think theres a relationship between how bad (relatively speaking, all the Halo games have been great just some less than others) the current iteration of Halo is and the strength and fun of the community is. So I say, the thing which will truly "reform" this community is if Halo 4 kicks ass. As you may have noticed, I don't think thats inevitable. Even if Halo 4 is "great" it could easily fail to be as good as we need it to be. I think Reach was good...but in a deeper sense it was a failure. It did not deliver. And I think the community reflects that.

 

And the sad truth might be that Halo might be in its Twilight, that we are polishing the brass on the Titanic...etc. etc. *post another cliche reference about people getting along while things are in decline*. And if thats the case, then the community will decline and fade slowly, as is the way of all things (profound!).

 

BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT point is...don't worry about it (At least not too much). Theres plenty of laughs and interesting arguments and stupid but amusing things to be said in the meantime, even if we are headed to hell in a handbasket. Rather Halo 4 fails to revive the community or is Halos new Sunrise, we shouldnt worry about it cuz its not in our hands. Its in 343's and God's hands. And I think since the community is a direct reflection of how strong the franchise is, my point is, just dont think about it. Focus on ironing out Halo 4's issues as best we can as members of the community and play our small role in making the final product better beacuse ultimately, thats the best thing we can do for "improving" the community.

 

So pretty much...long story short...from what I've seen in my two months or so here thus far...we got a real nice community going here. Even if the whole community is sinking, well I'm pretty sure we are on the highest point of the ship. So dont worry too much about the "decline" of the community.

 

PS. The two problem groups are idiots and over zealous perfectionist idiots as Doc highlighted. Idiots arent going away, but I bet overly competive uber-MLG types will figure out that Halo does not belong to them and that 343 doesnt really care what they think...in about 6 Months from now.

[PuRe PoNy]

Amazing post Twin! We need to band together and become strong, like how carbon bonds together to form a strong diamond structure. COD players all say how halo is 'unrealistic' and 'a boring game' and when you ask them if they've actually played it they've only played about one match. We enjoy a franchise which has story outside the games and a well developed story at that. We all need to show the rest of the world that we're proud to be fans of Halo!

[Baby Boo]

This text... every inspiring word was true. With twin, isn't it always?

 

 

We need to come together as a community. We need to unite ourselves, dispite our differences or beliefs. We need to support each others ideas, and we need to accept these changes as a whole. I mean, look at these woderful forums. We have a very hardworking administrator, we have an outstanding moderating team, staff that devote half their life here, and we have some of the friendliest people on the internet gathered here. Each and every one of us, in each of these groups, contributes to this forum with all of your heart, in one way or another, making big changes and small alike. All of us make this forum grow and become a better place.

 

 

But the only way halo will get back to the top of the gaming industry, is if we learn to accept others beliefs on different matters. I'm not sure what more I can say, other than we are one, and one is all.

 

 

-Bullet

[Twinreaper]

Viva, I can't help but feel that you do not care to help.facilitate a change. The problem is not with the game or direction itself, it is the pure attitude of the gamer. In particular the one group that has placed itself as the know-it-all solo experts of all things Halo is the MLG. The force their opinions and see every other genre of playstyle as insignificant and meaningless. On the other end, you have new gamers who care nothing but for themselves. The oldest community members do not shun or esent anyone. I welcome all gamers equally and only judge upon things they speak about in terms of fact and truth. People who do not care to rally or heal the community are sideline spectators at best. Noone is forcing anyone to.change. I just felt it was my duty as an established and well respected Halo community member, to at least reveal.some basic truths.

[Smokin Shadowz]

Good Post Twin.

[VivaLebowski]

Viva, I can't help but feel that you do not care to help.facilitate a change. The problem is not with the game or direction itself, it is the pure attitude of the gamer. In particular the one group that has placed itself as the know-it-all solo experts of all things Halo is the MLG. The force their opinions and see every other genre of playstyle as insignificant and meaningless. On the other end, you have new gamers who care nothing but for themselves. The oldest community members do not shun or esent anyone. I welcome all gamers equally and only judge upon things they speak about in terms of fact and truth. People who do not care to rally or heal the community are sideline spectators at best. Noone is forcing anyone to.change. I just felt it was my duty as an established and well respected Halo community member, to at least reveal.some basic truths.

 

No, I don't care to facilitate a change. I'm going to mind my own business. And here's why:

 

In your first post you made a call to unity and to end pettiness and yet in your second post your blaming one group as being a high contributor to the problem. Do you see the contradiction here?

 

My point isnt that your wrong about that group. I ain't saying they ain't ********. I kinda agree with you on that. My point is, whenever people talk about "oh lets unite and stop bickering" its really beacuse they want one particular group to stfu and agree with them.

 

Its like when Democrats or Republicans get up on a stage and say "Oh we need to unite, we need to make progress, we need to be Bipartisan BUT ITS THOSE PEOPLES FAULT WE ARENT!". These guys don't really care about uniting or increased civility...all they care about is shaming the people who oppose their opinions into shutting up and toeing their line.

 

From what I just read, what you really seem to want is "unity" and "civility" so you can get that MLG group which you have problems with to shut up when really what we need is more debate so we can settle these arguments the old fashioned way. More civility would be nice, but theres no need to be internet nazi's to stamp out incivility.

 

Besides, The MLG types are going to lose, Halo is already lost to them, and soon they will abandon the cause. You don't need to rally the community to stamp out their opinions beacuse their opinions are going to be defunct...very shortly now.

 

So no, I don't feel the need to cause change beacuse change is going to happen regardless. The people who post here, who agree with you? They already agreed with you! You telling them what they already know and wanted to hear is not going to change a damn thing.

 

 

Also, with regards to new users who are "selfish" and what not, please remember that theres going to be allot of little kids and teenagers coming into this. Its inevitable. I was an @sshole when I first started posting in video game forums. So your going to have to tolerate a certain amount of annoying behavior. You don't have to accept it. You certainly shouldnt like it. But you can live with it, hell you have been this entire time as is.

 

Lastly, if you think the problem of general ****iness on the internet is getting worse, than your problem isnt just with the internet community, its with Western culture in general. Your problem is with the giant cultural trends which effect every part of our lives not just the goings ons in our little corner of cyberspace. So take it up with that. Start thinking, discussing and arguing about religion and idealogy and morality with people around you in your daily lives beacuse thats really where your problem is. If you don't want to do that...if you don't want to do that, just mind your own business. Other than that, don't worry about what happens on the internet so much, beacuse theres not much you can do to stop it short of reforming and reversing the cultural trends of today.

 

The world needs way less activists and way more people who are just willing to live their own lives well. Beacuse really, the only way things really change is when people change, as individuals, from the inside. This isn't to say that I have an attitude of callous indifference towards many of the things which typically result in a mobilization of allot of people towards a common cause...I'm not going to callously look down my nose at the Red Cross, aid relief, Military service, charity, etc etc. But when it comes to speech? To what people say? Individuality is the rule when it comes to that.

 

PS. You also talked about how people in other communities laughed at us. LOL! This is the internet. If they actually are that invested, that stupid, to do that, who gives a flying f*ck what they think? For the love of god, I like how we have a sense of community, but lets stop thinking about ourselves as a collective mass that needs to defend against other groups and restructure ourselves, and think more in terms of "we are individuals who need to mind our own business".

 

PSS. I am not a Ron Paul supporter

[Twinreaper]

My second post was an illustration, and for that purpose only. I have no quarrel with any MLG or competative types. I respect MLG players just as I do any other. I guess you'r missing the overall point of this or just don't care either way. If you do not care at all, then why are your pointlessly posting in this thread? Is your intention simply to diminish or downplay this cause?

 

I take issue with your little kid and teenage referrence. Not every "kid" or "teenager" is rude, impolite, immature, etc... At times I have seen younger people behave more appropriatly thatn ones 2 or 3 times their age. Please don't slight younger players. They have just as much right to be a part of a community and enjoy the game online as the rest of us.

 

No, I suppose your an Obama suppoert.

[Zuko 'Zarhamee]

Also, with regards to new users who are "selfish" and what not, please remember that theres going to be allot of little kids and teenagers coming into this. Its inevitable. I was an @sshole when I first started posting in video game forums. So your going to have to tolerate a certain amount of annoying behavior. You don't have to accept it. You certainly shouldnt like it. But you can live with it, hell you have been this entire time as is.

Saying that little kids and teenagers are the only immature and selfish people who play Halo is just plain offensive. I just turned 13 two months ago and I've met people who are much older than me, but way less mature on Xbox Live. I once got cussed out by a guy older than me for blowing his Falcon out of the sky with a Spartan Laser. I just ignored him. Who's the more mature person here?

[VivaLebowski]

My second post was an illustration, and for that purpose only. I have no quarrel with any MLG or competative types. I respect MLG players just as I do any other. I guess you'r missing the overall point of this or just don't care either way. If you do not care at all, then why are your pointlessly posting in this thread? Is your intention simply to diminish or downplay this cause?

 

I take issue with your little kid and teenage referrence. Not every "kid" or "teenager" is rude, impolite, immature, etc... At times I have seen younger people behave more appropriatly thatn ones 2 or 3 times their age. Please don't slight younger players. They have just as much right to be a part of a community and enjoy the game online as the rest of us.

 

No, I suppose your an Obama suppoert.

 

What do you want to do with your "cause" Twin? Do you merely want people who already agree with you to further reform their behavior? What is your objective? How are you going to apply yourself to accomplishing these goals? At first I was responding to what I thought a well intentioned but needless thread about civlity and unity. With your second post, you seemed to suggest that you had a particular problem with one group, MLG users. And, after rereading your earlier post, I noticed that you suggested that intolerance will not be tolerated. What are you going to do? Try to shut down the threads of MLG users who are being "intolerant" of casual players? Frankly, thats just kinda creepy. I don't want to throw labels like fascistic or dictatorial around but honestly, I think those terms apply pretty well whenever anyone starts talking about not tolerating intolerance. Intolerance is precisely the thing that needs to be tolerated. Theres no point restricting freedom of speech if your only going to apply it to people who are agreeable to you! But more to the point, I just really want to know, how are you going to reform and unite the Halo community? I ain't going to say anything more in response to you until I have a clearer idea of what you actually want to do. I bet you don't want to implement some conspiratorial dictatorship. I don't think you have "fascistic" tendencies or that you want to exclude MLG users and other groups who actively disagree with you. That would just be silly. And I will bet good money that when you read my bit about Freedom of Speech you immeadiately though "Well I wasnt suggesting that we should restricts anyones freedom of speech!" But I do think you have your priorities in the wrong place. And I just want to help you realize that saying you want to make everything civil and unite the community and get rid of intolerance is good, but actually doing that might cost allot more than its worth. I'm saying that, even when it comes to things like internet speech, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.That is all I am trying to say here.

 

And in response to you and TrueGostlyOtto, nowhere did I suggest that all young people and teenagers are immature. And I would never suggest that we should kick people out and reject them based on age. But the simple truth is, and we all know it, that allot of young people can act prett dumb and make mistakes before they learn better. Thats all I meant by that. Is there something wrong with suggesting that we are going to need to tolerate a certain amount of immaturity from younger users who are not immature? I was saying this in the context of "tolerating" a certain amount of idiocy, not restricting it. I was holding up misbehaving young community members as an example of a group which needs to be tolerated, to a certain extent. I was defending younger users, even the stupid ones! So please don't suggest that I was generalizing all younger people as behaving such and such or that I was saying we should somehow exclude them. My point was precisely the opposite...that we must tolerate them even when they are being annoying (within reason of course).

 

Also, with response to your thing about me supporting Obama, Im gonna make sure this doesnt turn into an argument about politics, so Imma shut the f' up about that right now.

 

PS. Truthfully, I find this a very intriguing argument. So, in accordance with the values which you yourself have laid out, lets keep it civil. And honestly, your criticisms of people's behavior is perfectly valid. I just worry about what you actually want to do to reform it. And if you actively don't have any sort of plan of action here, then my criticism of your post is simply beacuse I think its more of the silly, redundant, and vague calls to "civility" and "politeness" that we hear so much from people everywhere.

[Twinreaper]

If I had more time I would happy to type it all out...my overall goal anyway. Surfice to say I wish to only get people to be more respectful and aware of the feelings of every sub-genre of playstyle. All too often people boast or stake claims that because they belong to a certain group, that everyone else is wrong, and in turn they demean and insult others without like minds. I have no intention of reforming the community as a whole at all. I am mearly the wheel that is getting this car started rolling towards a more unified community.

 

All I want is for everyone to stop bickering about what makes a great title, who gets priority over what, and who is better than who. All these things to the developer, can paint a messy and inaccurate portrait or how they can improve things for us. As an example, look around at the various threads. One might come in here and just as soon leave after seeing the mess that some threads have in them. It's a lot to look at and a lot to tend to, but if we learn to work together more cooperatively, we can see a much bigger payoff in terms of overall game quality, on console and on Live.

 

Throughout history, great men have changed nations. These men did not do so by physically going around and holding peoples hand, or even doing the hard work themselves. No, these men inspired people and educated them on how and in what direction to go. I have a strong sense of leadership, but I do not care to be the sole person who is looked at for leading things towards a better path. I am simply just putting my foot forward and starting to get people who may feel the same way, or those who don't, a perspective to look back on and decide themselves wether or not they want to change. It is purely optional. Either way, I love this community and will always be a part of it....if thats a good things......seeing as how I piss off a lot of people lmao

[VivaLebowski]

If I had more time I would happy to type it all out...my overall goal anyway. Surfice to say I wish to only get people to be more respectful and aware of the feelings of every sub-genre of playstyle. All too often people boast or stake claims that because they belong to a certain group, that everyone else is wrong, and in turn they demean and insult others without like minds. I have no intention of reforming the community as a whole at all. I am mearly the wheel that is getting this car started rolling towards a more unified community.

 

All I want is for everyone to stop bickering about what makes a great title, who gets priority over what, and who is better than who. All these things to the developer, can paint a messy and inaccurate portrait or how they can improve things for us. As an example, look around at the various threads. One might come in here and just as soon leave after seeing the mess that some threads have in them. It's a lot to look at and a lot to tend to, but if we learn to work together more cooperatively, we can see a much bigger payoff in terms of overall game quality, on console and on Live.

 

You know that all sounded really good...but I'd kinda like you to address that part about "not tolerating intolerance" before you go back into cliche mode. I'd also like you to address exactly how individuals who are following what you want to do should be interacting with MLG people, for instance, who disagree with you and the rest of us. I was making some none-too subtle allegations that the road your on is leading to softcore internet fascism and I was expecting an angry but succint response, not more lovy-dovy cliches.

 

Throughout history, great men have changed nations. These men did not do so by physically going around and holding peoples hand, or even doing the hard work themselves. No, these men inspired people and educated them on how and in what direction to go. I have a strong sense of leadership, but I do not care to be the sole person who is looked at for leading things towards a better path. I am simply just putting my foot forward and starting to get people who may feel the same way, or those who don't, a perspective to look back on and decide themselves wether or not they want to change. It is purely optional. Either way, I love this community and will always be a part of it....if thats a good things......seeing as how I piss off a lot of people lmao

 

I realize we have been having a pretty in depth and serious discussion about whats going on here, but can we please remember that this is just the internet? An internet forum over a video game. I mean, yeah, I connected the discussion to big dramatic and pretty serious things, cultural trends, fascism, and what not...And I also know that this community is a not insubstantial part of allot of people's lives...but really, when it comes right down to it, what happens here is not that THAT important and talking about yourself as leading us all towards a better path in the context of great men in History is just silly. What, are you a Great man in history like George Washington? Of course thats not what you were probably thinking of, but really, this is a video game forum. You should remember that and take it a tad less seriously.

[Twinreaper]

Halo has overtime connected people physically and also has been responsible for people meeting up and actually getting married. This might just be a simple video game to you, but for many many more it is as important and offers just as many "real" connections as any other life encounter. You are downplaying the value of the community and the game for a lot of members, and I just don't see any reason why you would? Do you have malformed intentions?

 

I clearly stated that I am not trying to lead anything. I am merely getting the ball rolling. You are reading into what I am saying at a higher level than it needs to be. I am a voice who voiced his opinion and made some factual observations, nothing more. People can do what they want with it, act how they want and post what they want. I am not trying to turn this into a dictator ship or fascist regime.

 

From your responses thus far, you are against any time of reform in the way we associate with each-other, and you have a problem with anyone trying to do so. SO why are you continuing to post in this thread and further diminish the members who have posted kudos and support for this? Do you think tearing them down with well constructed passive aggressive posts is a great way to show yourself as a friendly and community supportive member? I get you don't like what I did, and quite frankly, I have no obligation to explain myself to you or anyone else. You can either like what I am doing, or simply leave and not like it. It's your choice.

 

And for the record, why should I or anyone else HAVE to tolerate any behavior in which it demeans, insults or aggressively hurts anyone? You think just because we are given the right to free speech, that it means we can actively go around anywhere, albeit forums, the park, Skype, etc and just say whatever we want without an equal or opposite effect? Get real. We may have free speech, but we also have certain guidelines in that free speech that must be followed. Go ahead and tell a cop or a government worker over Live, that they are ****in trash noob *ick sucker and see what happens. All I want is for people to not be as rude and intolerant to each-other within the game. the game and the community is what WE make of it, it is not predefined in quality or importance by any standard. The people in the community have clearly spoken over time and turned it into much more than just a simple internet and game community.

 

With all do respect to your opinion, which you are entitled to. Please stop posting ill-fated comments or non-support to this thread, or a moderator will be alerted. This thread was an awareness thread to start, not a grounds for a flame war or argument about whether or not it is valid or important. Thanks.

[VivaLebowski]

I'm going to respond here beacuse you asked me some specific questions there, but after this I'm not going to reply anymore, which you want anyway.

 

1) "I just don't see any reason why you would?"

I have been engaging in a pretty serious discussion about the repurcussions about people trying to "reform" or change behavior in an internet behavior. Obviously I don't dismiss it out of hand as being simply trivial. All that said, I draw the line at comparing yourself to "great men" in history. To be honest, in most contexts, even serious ones, when people start talking about themselves in such tones as "great men" of history I am inclined to remind them to take the context and themselves less seriously beacuse in most cases, even relatively important ones, they shouldn't be proudly talking about themselves that way. Its innapropriate beacuse its against common decency and its doubly innapropriate beacuse the context is not one about "great historical events".

 

2)"I am merely getting the ball rolling."

 

I've heard. I'm merely asking how you specifically plan on implementing that, or think it should be implemented.

 

3) "you think tearing them down with well constructed passive aggressive posts is a great way to show yourself as a friendly and community supportive member?"

 

I'm not tearing "them" down. I'm talking specifically to you. And I'm not even trying to tear you down. I'm just trying to get a feel for what you believe is appropriate, based on what you posted, and arguing against those elements of your thought which I disagree with. Beacuse I find this argument interesting. There's nothing more pernicous to it than that. I'm glad you think my posts are well constructed though . Also to reiterate, I don't object to people reforming their behavior. I'm a fan of reform...as long as its from the individual...so I'm naturally inclined to suspect and argue against anything which seems to be inclined against mobilizing people collectively to restrict the speech of others. Naturally, you disagree with that characterization of your position, and that is precisely the argument we have been having. I meant no more harm than that.

 

4) "And for the record, why should I or anyone else HAVE to tolerate any behavior in which it demeans, insults or aggressively hurts anyone?"

 

Beacuse you already do? Beacuse such toleration is the basis of freedom of speech. I'm going to blow your mind here: When you suggest I think all teenagers and kids are immature, you demean me. When I accuse you of internet fascism, I am insulting you. When anyone makes any even mildly contradictory argument or any statement in a condescending tone, when anyone criticizes someones arguments as says "do you have malformed intentions?"...these staements are insulting, demeaning and hurtfull. But rather they are "insulting" or "demeaning" has absolutely nothing to do with rather the statements are true or not, nor are insulting or demeaning statements restricted to expressions of racism or slurs or what have you that you or I don't have a basic right to say them.

 

IDK what your idea of "toleration" is and IDK what your idea of "intolerance" is but the reality is you have been tolerating condescending jerks, idiots, as well as people who simply disagree with you your entire life and likely are going to continue to do so. You have been tolerating me (at least up until you threatened me with the moderators) even though I have suggested that all sorts of bad things about you. Toleration does not equal acceptance...it means you allow the thing to happen without trying to bring the force of authority to bear to stop it. It means you live with it, in other words. And as I said, you have been "tolerating" all sorts of insulting and hurtfull things your entire life. Me suggesting you are engaging in internet fascism is hurtfull, is it not? And yet, you have tolerated it, at least up until this point?

 

And the point at which you stop tolerating discension such as myself is the point at which this community really does start stamping out the opinions of people who disagree with them.

 

 

5) "All I want is for people to not be as rude and intolerant to each-other within the game."

Do you want that, or do you want MLG users (to bring back the group you specifically highlighted) to stop posting things you happen to disagree with in the community? The distinction is important. Do you simply want to encourage people to stop calling eachother names, or do you want "competitive" minded players to shut up and stop criticizing Halo 4 and 343 and dividing the community? Dividing the community is bad. Restricting freedom of speech is way way worse. And specifically mentioning a group of people you happen to disagree with in the context of a discussion about getting everyone togethor to "reform" behavior must be treated with suspicion. It's (once again) like politicians trying to encourage "civility" and "bipartisanship" and then proceeding to organize boycotts of media organizations they happen to disagree with. Of course, they have the right to do that, just as you have the right and freedom to call in the moderators and try to get them to shut me down here. That doesnt mean you should. And even if its not the government restricting free speech, any time a group of people get togethor to censor people they disagree with, you are attacking freedom of speech.

 

Of course, there's logical limits to freedom of speech. Theres a whole lot of useless garbage which communites are perfectly justified in banning, locking, and deleting. But theres stuff which needs to be protected. Context is everything here.

 

But I will shut up now, becuse you threatened me with the moderators. If you want to validate the suspicioun of someone who thinks you might have "dictatorial" tendancies, you can hardly do better than talking about yourself as a great man in history and then forcing me to shut my mouth.

[Zuko 'Zarhamee]

And in response to you and TrueGostlyOtto, nowhere did I suggest that all young people and teenagers are immature. And I would never suggest that we should kick people out and reject them based on age. But the simple truth is, and we all know it, that allot of young people can act prett dumb and make mistakes before they learn better. Thats all I meant by that. Is there something wrong with suggesting that we are going to need to tolerate a certain amount of immaturity from younger users who are not immature? I was saying this in the context of "tolerating" a certain amount of idiocy, not restricting it. I was holding up misbehaving young community members as an example of a group which needs to be tolerated, to a certain extent. I was defending younger users, even the stupid ones! So please don't suggest that I was generalizing all younger people as behaving such and such or that I was saying we should somehow exclude them. My point was precisely the opposite...that we must tolerate them even when they are being annoying (within reason of course).

Sorry. I misunderstood what you were saying. No hard feelings?

[Baby Boo]

You both need to quit it. While I do support Twins opinions and beliefs for this community, I must say, your argument with viva... That is part of what you aim to prevent, is it not? And viva, one of your arguements "You need to learn to tolerate intolerance", actually, no, we have no reason to tolerate rude and inconsiderate behavior. Sure, you have the right of free speech, but you have to take advantage of this right respectively, and without causing any form of harm, verbally or physically, to others. This is not a right for a select few to neglect.

 

 

Another thing you said earlier, younger players tend to be significantly more immature. When in realality, you come across simple kids like me, who can make better decisions, and overall show more maturity than others much older than they are themselves. I know you were not talking about kids in general, but I still failed to see the sincerity in that point.

 

I say just lock this argument down; now. It is getting neither of you anywhere, and is just filling up this thread. Not to mention, someone like me hates to see two members fight like this. This is all I have to say as of now. But both of you, please consider my points.

[Carts]

Younger players have a tendancy to be annoying. However, witha supporting community they are the most apt to change there ways to be a good members and supporters of the gaming community. To have this support roots to the topics on the 1st page.

 

In Podtacular (a clan of over 600 active members containing people from age 10-40 [most members were actually 20+ with a few of the sites leaders at 30+]) we had a clan overlord (the title for the clan leader in Halo 2s clan tab system containing 100 members per clan) that was 12 years old. He was very respectful, friendly and knowledgeable of the game and had great ideas to improve our community. I personnally was also an Overlord of another of our clans at the age of 14 (6 years ago).

 

All this just to list an example that younger players have the potential to be some of the best members of the gaming community. Given they have good community members to teach them. Which imo, sites like these are the best place for them to get involved since of the friendly atmosphere.